Vocal Mixing Nightmare

[Mahem]

Im a music producer (mainly in Rap Hiphop & R&B, but i also compose Rock and Metal concepts electronically) and I have artist recording at lower budget studios. The guy thats recording them (using Sonar 4) makes them record 2 takes of both the lead vocal and any adlibs they may do, and then pans one out to the left and the other to the right... Im no expert, but im quite sure that this is wrong and it sounds pretty crappy. Hes also compresses the vocals into squares (which squeezes the life out of them) then he compiles all of these takes and adds more compression! I need u guys to confirm the ingnorance in this way of recording so he can see this thread. Is this right or wrong? (be brutally honest)

[Dogman]

Well, I'm no expert, but if the panned vocals are the same thing, and supposed to sound as one, panning may not be the best thing. It will most likey sound as 2 different tracks if panned. If the object is to sound as 2 seperate tracks, maybe that works. Panning hard to one side or the other, sounds a bit much to me. And compressions, well, that is all dependant on the sound desired. Too much compression, and it will loose dynamics. It might be hard to get vox to sit well in the mix, without a bunch of verb, or delay then. But, it all depends on what sound the guy wants.

[sdsi]

I don't agree with the panning deal...but it really all depends on the situation. Is there any way you can post a sample? Also...if it doesn't sound like anything you would like...and you are paying for it...tell him not to do it. You should also try bringing in a reference cd to give him an idea that what he is doing is nothing like that.

[Mahem]

I'll try to get a copy and put a sample out so u guys can hear it and tell me what you think...

[ez_willis]

If it sounds like shit, it ain't right, regardless of the path he took to get it to shitsville.

[VSpaceBoy]

Originally Posted by ez_willis

If it sounds like shit, it ain't right, regardless of the path he took to get it to shitsville.

hilarious!! and I'm takin' it!

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Mahem

Im a music producer <snip happens> it sounds pretty crappy.

Then "produce".

The job of a "producer" is to oversee both the recording budget and the final product that is produced with that budget [sometimes in the other order, but none the less... that's the general job description].

If you are truly "a producer", then do your job. Tell the "engineer" [employee] that the results attained are not what you [employer] want for this project. If the "engineer" [employee] does not attain the desired result, then you as the "producer" [employer] must decide whether you want to live with product you think sucks [thereby putting your reputation in jeopardy] or to fire the employee and find a new employee that can do a job that will attain the results you seek for the project.

There is no "right" and no "wrong" when it comes to producing music. There is product that conveys the intention of the production team [and hopefully some audience as well] and music that does not convey the intention of the production team [which can still find an audience... but it's a little tougher for the artist to get behind product they don't dig].

If you were hired as "the producer" [or if you're the one putting up the money; making you "executive producer" and/or owner of the label]... then it's your job to make the decisions as to the aesthetic of the product.

Best of luck finding the cajones to do your job properly.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Then "produce".

Amen.

G.

[metal_god]

As far as i've been taught the lead vocal should sit the middle of the stereo field and maybe some backing vocals or something on the left or right. Though i've also been taught to try not to pan hard left/right all the time. Theres no real rules though so just be creative.

[FALKEN]

hello?? ramones??? anyone???

[rory]

For some circumstances, I LOVE the two vocal takes panned hard left and hard right. Take a listen to Radiohead's "Let Down". Is it good all the time? Absolutely not. But it can be another trick to be used when the situation calls for it.

I generally record two vocal tracks to begin with. I like the doubling it creates, even if the secondary is -20 or -30 dB down. But once again, I don't save them both every time.

Rory

[Mahem]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Then "produce".

The job of a "producer" is to oversee both the recording budget and the final product that is produced with that budget [sometimes in the other order, but none the less... that's the general job description].

If you are truly "a producer", then do your job. Tell the "engineer" [employee] that the results attained are not what you [employer] want for this project. If the "engineer" [employee] does not attain the desired result, then you as the "producer" [employer] must decide whether you want to live with product you think sucks [thereby putting your reputation in jeopardy] or to fire the employee and find a new employee that can do a job that will attain the results you seek for the project.

There is no "right" and no "wrong" when it comes to producing music. There is product that conveys the intention of the production team [and hopefully some audience as well] and music that does not convey the intention of the production team [which can still find an audience... but it's a little tougher for the artist to get behind product they don't dig].

If you were hired as "the producer" [or if you're the one putting up the money; making you "executive producer" and/or owner of the label]... then it's your job to make the decisions as to the aesthetic of the product.

Best of luck finding the cajones to do your job properly.

The artist has an alliance with this engineer, not myself lol And i would tell him what to do but i have no clue when it comes to vocals. The guy is not signed to me, he has creative control. The deal is i have a very talented Rap artist on my hands and i just need other engineers to explain the process on this thread so he can see that his way isnt the right way... (and this is not a high budget project)

p.s. my reputation is solid

[mrT]

Originally Posted by Mahem

The artist has an alliance with this engineer, not myself lol And i would tell him what to do but i have no clue when it comes to vocals. The guy is not signed to me, he has creative control. The deal is i have a very talented Rap artist on my hands and i just need other engineers to explain the process on this thread so he can see that his way isnt the right way... (and this is not a high budget project)

p.s. my reputation is solid

I don't mean this as an insult but how the hell are you a producer if you have no control over the engineer and you don't know anything about vocals?

That being said the hard panned vocals can deffinately work just make sure to listen to it in mono. All kinds of crazy shit can happen that you don't hear when vocals are hard panned. If it sounds good in mono and you like the sound there's nothing wrong with it. Just don't do it to every song. It'll get old fast. As far as your compressor happy engineer, just tell him to lay off the compression. if he argues just have him do the takes without compression and tell him he can add it later if he wants but you want the uncompressed takes. Then everyone is happy!

[Mahem]

Originally Posted by mrT

I don't mean this as an insult but how the hell are you a producer if you have no control over the engineer and you don't know anything about vocals?

That being said the hard panned vocals can deffinately work just make sure to listen to it in mono. All kinds of crazy shit can happen that you don't hear when vocals are hard panned. If it sounds good in mono and you like the sound there's nothing wrong with it. Just don't do it to every song. It'll get old fast. As far as your compressor happy engineer, just tell him to lay off the compression. if he argues just have him do the takes without compression and tell him he can add it later if he wants but you want the uncompressed takes. Then everyone is happy!

Listen, I produce/sell music. I dont know if you understand the way the music process works in the hip hop world but its akward because the artist is not a musician at all. (in most cases) Just a lyricist. The musicianship and the recording/lyrical part of the puzzle are very seprate. (for example i've sold tracks that i made in 2001, in 2004) So a person that does instrumentals for a hip hop artist may call himself a "Producer", but has nothing to do with the supervision of a song's progress. With that being said, I sold this music to the guy. I can't tell him what he can do from here... Im just trying to advise him about the quality of this paticular engineer, and hes open to my advice. And im open to any advise related to the audio engineering process. I don't need advise about what i shoud do as a "Instrumentalist" or "Producer" or whatever you want to call it. If anyone has any technical advice about the situation i encourage you to post, if you want to explain to me what i need to do as a "Producer" you might want to go post on a different thread... Thank you

[bigj]

1) Now you say that you produced the instrumental/beat!

2) The guy that bought the instrumental/beat should decide on his own if the sound he is getting from the person arranging his vocals is good for the song or not. If he is getting the elbow because of his alliance with the person, tuff luck. In my side of town is either my way, or I just go out there and pay!

3) Best advice you can give MR Rapper is to lay off this guy if he won't listen to him in what he thinks about HIS song. End of the line, the guy bought the instrumental, and is paying or not for the recording of HIS song. If he doesn't like it, tell him to speak out! If the guy don't want to do it any other way. F Him! Go to another studio.

4) And yeah i understand how hip-hop type of thing works. I'm a Reggaeton Artist myself. Beat Makers (producers), People overseeing an album (Producers) and the artist is just that, a provider of voice, lirics, rythim and style. That's it! The difference is that in Reggaeton if a company wants you to produce a track/instrumental/beat they want you to make it, they will give you power on the recording session and expect you to be overlooking mixing if not done by you. Then and only then your name would appear in the track listings as a producer!

Anyways...a lot of hate on the thread already, don't confuse this kats mind with technical mumbo jumbo. If it feels right to him, it's his song, if it doesn't then.......

[mrT]

Originally Posted by Mahem

Listen, I produce/sell music. I dont know if you understand the way the music process works in the hip hop world but its akward because the artist is not a musician at all. (in most cases) Just a lyricist. The musicianship and the recording/lyrical part of the puzzle are very seprate. (for example i've sold tracks that i made in 2001, in 2004) So a person that does instrumentals for a hip hop artist may call himself a "Producer", but has nothing to do with the supervision of a song's progress. With that being said, I sold this music to the guy. I can't tell him what he can do from here... Im just trying to advise him about the quality of this paticular engineer, and hes open to my advice. And im open to any advise related to the audio engineering process. I don't need advise about what i shoud do as a "Instrumentalist" or "Producer" or whatever you want to call it. If anyone has any technical advice about the situation i encourage you to post, if you want to explain to me what i need to do as a "Producer" you might want to go post on a different thread... Thank you

Yes, I actually do know how it works. I egineer/co-produce mostly rap. I guess I just thought that from the way you presented it that the artist was YOUR artist. Just gave the general impression of a typical producer/artist recording relationship. That's what I gave the advice for. That being said I didn't mean it to be insulting or degrading. If I were the artist on a project where the producer didn't know anything about recording I'd be looking for a new producer. Since you make beats that's a little different. Honestly just go with what you like. If you think the engineer should try somethign else just say so. Since you technically were an artist for hire you really have no final say but it sounds like everyone's after the same goal. Just try not to step on the engineers toes. Be nice about it and he should be nice back.

[Mahem]

Thanks for the advice, big j, and mrt im going to take what u guys said into consideration