EQ probs

[little guy]

well i will start off by saying i try to use my ears as well as i can. i'm having the usual problem of getting my vocals to plop into the mix. i also understand that in order to achieve this, some EQ is needed to notch out an area for the vocals to fit. the task at hand is finding where the vocals sit at which frequency. so i open up the equalizer and i grab hold of the band slider. looping the vocals and i shut my eyes and slide the band slider. i'm looking to find the frequency at which the vocals drop out. and thats the problem. i'm using a width of 1 octave. so i go and i notch it out of all the instruments that are hogging up that space. but i'm not sure how much to notch it out. should i take it one instrument at a time until i get the vocals to sit with the instrument. my guess is that if i do it one at a time then get it just right that when i go to play all the instruments the area that i just notched out won't be enough because all the instruments combined will just make that area louder. this is really hard and i have tons of respect for those who can do this. i would upload the mix i'm working on but i can't due to copyright issues it's at acidplanet in a contest which i'm definately not going to win, so that's not why i need the help. i figured the contest would push me to work harder, but now i'm finding out my areas that i need work on. so please take a listen, give tips and be harsh, i no there are some definate problems in the mix. here's the link.My problem mix

thanks to anyone who can try and lead me in the right direction. i'm not looking for someone to give me all the answers, but more guide me into finding the answers on my own, that way i will know why the answer is what it is. thanks.

[In Tune Audio]

One key thing to remember, is that every instrument and vocal part has energy all over the frequency ranges, not just one area. So when you have a singer in the mix, just notching a couple of other parts won't make everything sit.

There will be tonnes of thoughts on this, but what I like to do, is cut very small amounts, maybe 2 or 3 db. And I don't take notches, because a notch will really only cut the energy from the equivalent of one or two notes in the frequency range. And by doing smaller cuts (or boasts as need be) your going to keep your parts sounding much more natural. Where to cut will depend on the instrument, singer and the song. (And personnel preference as each engineer likes things different)


Wasn't able to explain that as clearly as I would have liked, but hope it helps!

[little guy]

i really appreciate all the help. when i say notch just to clarify i mean i scoop out an area of one octave about 5 - 6 db.

[In Tune Audio]

Cool, I always think of notch as a very narrow cut. But like 12db

[little guy]

if you go to the link in my first post of this thread, you'll hear what i'm talking about and have a better understanding of what i'm trying to get at.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

guy,

I just gave it a whirl...not bad at all! A pretty nice arrangement and mix all the way around.

With regards to the vocals, I'm not so sure that I'm hearing that much of an EQ conflict so much as an occasional presence problem and levels battle.

Number one for me is that the vocals have a quasi-AM-filter finish to them that, combined with the verb that's on them, make them sound more distant than their intrinsic volume would suggest. This is making the vocals sound like they are behind the instruments. Especially when you contrast the sound of the vocals with that main synth sequence that you have going in stereo phase or delay on the far sides L&R. Those are panned hard, but they are in your face as far as the sound. So what I am hearing is verbed and filtered(?) vocals in the center framed by in your face synth sequences on the borders. This accentuates the depth given to the vocals and really gives them that behind-the-band sound I think.

That said, however, the amount of "problem" that this creates varies depending on where in the song you are. It's really, IMHO only an apparent nuisence going into the choruses; the verses don't sound horrible (though perhaps the vocals *might* be brought forward just a taste there.) The bridge is kind of a different story, the vocals there are also a little faded, but in a different way.

I might try some levels automation in the mix; bring the vocals up just a smidgen, if at all, during the verses, in the choruses duck the levels of the overall instrumenmtation just a bit (kind of an on-the-fly compression, in a way) and in the bridge do it to taste, but I'd be interested in trying to really bring the bridge vocals into the listener's face and see how that doubling sounds when it's unquestionably up front.

Just some suggestions for things to try, no guarantess, YMMV and all that.

G.

[little guy]

southside, thanks for the listen. i appreciate your advice, i'll give it a shot. also you opened my eyes to something that i should've thought of. reverb is used to help emphasize distance. not once did i ever think that would be the problem. plus the reverb on the old AM sound adds a bunch of crap in the high end which could cause ear fatigue, along with the synths filtering creating more high end. i could quite possibly EQ the synths with a lot of high end, just to make it easier on the ear. time to get to work. thanks once again. i've read your posts, i trust your experience. thanks.

[NYMorningstar]

Instead of trying to plop your vocals into your mix you may wanna try building the rest of the music around the vocals as an alternative.

[little guy]

i'd just like to thank you all and especially southside, i used your advice, also ellaborated a little bit. EQ'ed each track one at a time to make them sound soo nice. then i blended them together. made a little space here and there. did the final mixdown. EQ'ed just a tiny bit on the final mix. Raised the volume up to an RMS of -16 db without compressing a thing. so, south, if you'd like to take one more listen, i don't wanna bug ya, and let me know what you think. anyone else feel free to check it out too.

heres the link:
Welcome To The Now


thanks

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Hey there, little big guy*,

I definitly personally think the vocals are much improved in the mix now, they now are in front of the instrumentation without dominating it all, which is I think (I hope) what you were shooting for. The interesting thing is that it actually makes that hard-panned sequence sound a bit more etherial and laid back, even though it is really still in the face; a great dichotomy. That kind of positive psychoacoustic effect on other tracks when making a major change to one track is what always excites me when i'm mixing and is usually a sign for me that I've done something right.

I think the bridge especially works well in the new mix, bring the vocals to the front as you have really gives the bridge some power and import, which I think it deserves not only lyrically, but structure-wise too; a nice energy that really hits stride in the instrumental crescendo that kicks in after it. Plus there are some extra spacial dynamics evident in that crescendo that sound great, the seperation and movement of the layered tracks is both cleaner and more dramatic. Very nice work, IMHO.

If I had to play devil's advocate, the only thing I would say is that I think - in my personal opinion only - that the kick lost just a tiny bit of it's edge in the second mix. The kick's still there as before, but it doesn't feel as though it has quite the same punch. I don't know if that was on purpose on your part, but I personally kinda liked that punch in the first one. If that kick got tightened back up just a smidge to where it was, I'd then probably yell "Cut and print! That's lunch people!"

Oh yeah, I like the lyrics, too

G.

*Just an inside joke to an associate who often reads this forum anonomyously and is a member of the "Little Big Men", whose members I usually jokingly refer to in person as the Little Big Guys.

[little guy]

thanks southside!
it's funny that you mention the kick lost it's punch. i've let ppl here at my office listen, and each of them were like, "where's the thumpin bass?" i think i'll have to give it a little push. make those subs work!!

[little guy]

well, i went back into the mix and bumped up the kick, thump thump thump. southside, i think it's just enough. check it out.

Welcome to the Now

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by little guy

well, i went back into the mix and bumped up the kick, thump thump thump.

Ok, yeah, you got the kick back to where it was in mix 1 and it sounds OK I think.

I have to apologize for giving you some incomplete advice, however. The kick is back, but it still doesn't sound the same on the low end as it originally did in v1 (I still have all three versions to compare.) I missed that both the kick and the bass line were weaker in v2. The kick is back now, but the bass line is still not where it was. Sorry I missed that.

Not that you have to listen to me, it's just one guy's opinion (unfortunately), but I'd like to see the bass line nudged back up just a taste as well, just like you did with the kick. Then I think THAT would do it for me .

G.

[little guy]

i understand that it's just one person's opinion. thing is your advice for changes has just made my mix better. plus you open my eyes to certain things i was over looking. thanks

[little guy]

pumped the low end. check it out.

New Update!

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Oh, little guy, now you've gone and DONE it. You have absoluetly screwed the whole thing up. It's all completly ruined now, absolute rubbish. And there's no way to get it back either.

You left the friggin cake out in the rain, and I don't think that I can take it. And you'll never have that recipe again.





JUST KIDDING! An early April Fools joke, if you will.

Seriously, yeah, that's what I was talking about. Some others might call it juust a tad too much boost on the kick - you could always pull it back just 1-1.5 dB just to tweak it and it'll still sound great. But as it is I kinda like it; it is emphasized during the verses and gives a bit of a modern street rap feel without the rap, yet in the choruses and elsewhere it the bass simply fills in the bottom end of the spectrum nicely and balanced-like.

Your office mates should be happy now too .

I say "Print it!".

G.

[little guy]

yeah, some may say that one can get in the vicious cycle of tweaks. well, i gave it one more tweak. i found my ear being distracted by the bass boost that i did. i love bass as much as the next guy, but it was just a tad too much. kinda like pepper, pepper is great, but not too much. i pulled it back a tad, and rode the kick and bass so that it blends with the chorus as well as the verse and bridge. i'm not going to ask you to listen again because you've already done way too much just by listening to each repost. but it's up there if you get bored. i think i'm done. PRINT IT!

Welcome To The Now............ Finished!