Owen Morris owns up to starting the brick wall nightmare

[LemonTree]

Just watched a documentary on the making of Oasis's Definately Maybe where Owen Morris owns up to brick wall limiting the whole album and for the whole of 1994 when Oasis came on a jukebox anywhere in the world they were louder than anyone else...he goes on to say "I might have fucked up musical dynamics for ever...maybe it's cause I'm Welsh"

[bblackwood]

Nah, the loudness wars were started back in the 60's, we just have more tolerance and more destructive weapons now...

[pingu]

Originally Posted by LemonTree

Just watched a documentary on the making of Oasis's Definately Maybe where Owen Morris owns up to brick wall limiting the whole album and for the whole of 1994 when Oasis came on a jukebox anywhere in the world they were louder than anyone else...he goes on to say "I might have fucked up musical dynamics for ever...maybe it's cause I'm Welsh"

Sounds like a maggot who is trying to claim he started something he didnt.

[LemonTree]

Originally Posted by pingu

Sounds like a maggot who is trying to claim he started something he didnt.

well...if you were there at the time you'd remember just how much louder Oasis came on the jukebox compared to everyone else at the time

[Farview]

Where is he? I'll bring the torches, someone else bring the pitchforks, sandwiches and beer.

Once we are done with him, we need to find the first fool that listened to that and thought it was a great idea.

[LemonTree]

Originally Posted by Farview

Where is he? I'll bring the torches, someone else bring the pitchforks, sandwiches and beer.

Once we are done with him, we need to find the first fool that listened to that and thought it was a great idea.

I totaly agree, Fairview....he didn't look to pleased with himself in the documentary

[FALKEN]

Nah...

I reject the notion that that band could have started any trends. they were, in fact, much the opposite.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

Nah...

I reject the notion that that band could have started any trends. they were, in fact, much the opposite.

It doesn't matter. This guy scapegoated himself. We need to make him an example.

[LemonTree]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

Nah...

I reject the notion that that band could have started any trends. they were, in fact, much the opposite.

We're talkin about the guy that said it was ok to steal the best bits of the beatles, slade and T rex.....come now...your path has ditches

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Like most wars in history, The RMS Wars did not start overnight in any one place, but were rather the result of many moves and environments that existed for years beforehand. In this case they were an evolution that has roots as varied as the synth rock of the 80s and radio and TV commercials of the '50s and '60s.

Now, I am certainly no fan of Oasis, personally; just the fact that Morris was affiliated with their success is almost reason enough to flail his skin . But then again, anybody who has enough sense to steal from T Rex can't be *all* bad.

G.

[LeeRosario]

Well if you kill this Owen guy, you do realize that you can't stop there, right?


Get used to the word "engineeroside" cause this world is full of brick wall limitation and feeble minded empancipation.


9 out of 10 popular rock songs that I had a look at started with 5 seconds of beautiful, breathing waveforms (the intro) before suddenly going mental on the speakers. Deftones White Pony album looked like a hyped up square saw.

So I'll bring the kerosine and hot dogs. We're gonna need some food after a good crusade.

[Farview]

After the two killings, we will grant amnesty for anyone who jumped on the band wagon after that. However, from this point forward, anyone caught limiting their mixes beyond belief, will meet the same fate.

[FALKEN]

I bet green day's albums were louder anyway.

[Projbalance]

So I'll ask this because it's in context, and it's relevant to the work I'm doing right now (like right this second):

If there is no audible distortion to the sound, how can you tell if something is, "Too loud"?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Projbalance

If there is no audible distortion to the sound, how can you tell if something is, "Too loud"?

I assume by the way you phrased your question, that you are referring to clipping distortion. There's more to "distortion" than just clipping. Technically speaking, any change to the original signal is distortion (as in , "you are 'distorting' the sound".)

The kind of distortion that is usually the culprit in The Loud War not clipping distortion (though that can often be introduced as well) but dynamics distortion. In order to squeeze every last dB of volume out of a mix, they flatten the mix volume-wise with excessive compression and/or limiting and bleed the life right out of the mix.

How much dynamic distortion is too much? When is a mix too loud? That's what ears are for.

The question is how far do you wish to distort the sound in the name of volume? Or put more succinctly, do you want to set volume with your ears or with your meters?

I'll let you in on two secrets: First, 90% of the people who are on the "more volume is better" side of the war are only partially doing so for the reason they say. The main reason they are making those kind of mixes is because they aren't very good at making a good-sounding high-dynamic mix. It's much harder technically and creatively to make a "pro-sounding" high dynamics mix than it is a "pro sounding" pancake. So they go the pancake route and justify it by saying "I gotta compete".

Second, in a world where all songs are flattened like a penny on the railroad tracks, the one song with the incredible dynamics is the one that will stand out. It's easy to compete if one has a fresh sound.

G.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by Projbalance

So I'll ask this because it's in context, and it's relevant to the work I'm doing right now (like right this second):

If there is no audible distortion to the sound, how can you tell if something is, "Too loud"?

it will cause listening fatigue.

as glen put it, you are "distorting" the waveforms, making them "flatter". The ear actually perceives this as unnatural and responds with fatigue...as in it just sounds annoying and you want to turn it off.

[Projbalance]

Thanks again Glen (you're my gucking hero round here you know) and you to Falken. I feel like I'm so bhind on this stuff but it's only in the last year or so that I've gotten real serious about understanding it.

So question, just out of curiosity. Where do you like to end up, RMS wise that is, when you work? Personally, I shoot for around -13 as a number of my favorite CD's fall around that area.

[FALKEN]

I stopped paying attention to the RMS but most of my mixes come out around -17.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Projbalance

Thanks again Glen (you're my gucking hero round here you know)

Thank you...I think?!? I guess that depends on one's definition of "gucking".

Originally Posted by Projbalance

So question, just out of curiosity. Where do you like to end up, RMS wise that is, when you work?

That is dependant entirely upon the content and style of the song. I never "shoot" for any RMS unless I am working on an album of songs and I'd like to at least get the apparent volume of the songs within a a couple of dB of each other at most.

But the absolute RMS is really dependant upon the content. Heavy metal tends to take higher RMS levels in the low teens or higher, whereas a grand piano and vocalist doing standards may never get higher than -17 or so. I'd say that most of the suff that has been passed my way lately winds up averaging between -16 and -14, but that's because that's hwere the quality of tracking and the density of the mix takes it, not because that's someting I "shoot for".

G.

[TheDewd]

I play and mix mainstream rock and I shoot for -8dBRMS, which is NOT loud..but it's damn hard to acheive. More often than not, I end up being maxed out at -9.5 dBRMS.

[Projbalance]

Yep, guess I didn't catch that little typo last night. Anyway, I just last night decided to put down my sword and my shield and give up fighting the "loudness wars" last night. I'm just tired of trying to find a way to make my mixers louder when I havent even learned how to make them sound good yet. So I'm gona go for lower RMS and just concentrate on the sound. I only work for my own records, so I'm the only one who can bitch about it realistically.