Slightly more advanced heavy guitar tone questions

[amra]

Ok, I have some questions regarding a specific type of heavy guitar tone. This is kind of beyond the usual basic questions regarding recording heavy guitar. All of these things are already a given here:
1. Got a tube amp with a JCM800 type circuit, and a 4x12 cab.
2. Got the SM57 close miked and sometimes a condenser a couple of feet back.
3. Got a useable preamp (focusrite penta platinum)
4. Got a nice sounding guitar with hot pickups (got plenty of gain).

This is basically a learning project for myself. This is the kind of guitar tone I personally strive for, and I thought it would be a good exercise in learning the ropes of recording and producing to try to understand how you get it.

Here is a sample of the kind of tone I am looking for.
Example clip: 'Bleed for me'

How do you keep the 'body' of the heavy guitar, without the boom - keep the crisp high ends, without too much fizz or that mid rangy metallic echo? Is it about mic position? Is it EQ? A better preamp? Multi-band compression?
I guess what I am asking is what are the key elements in getting this recorded guitar tone, production value-wise.

[phaqu]

Like its been said before,..how is the amp sounding to you in the room? Are you getting that cut and tone when your listening to it live? If its good there, next step is mics and mic placement. 57s have been doing that job for a while. When you place the mic, how is it sounding through the monitors? The quick set up I use is here http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthr...05#post1936105
I take that as a starting point and start to adjust the mic angles to get the most out of the sound. I learned that trick with the headphones on while the guitarist is playing,so you can hear the changes as you move the mic.If thats you, you might get a friend to help out(feedback and shit).Multiple mics give you more options as to the overall sound. Move them around to get the full range of your cabinet. You know how when you walk around your cab the tone changes a litte.I eq each track of the different mics(later on in the mix) with different settings. But I also eq after compression.They may sound like shit separatley, but when they are blended together, the sound comes alive.Its like, you treat each mic as a different aspect of the whole sound. Just remember to leave frequency room for the other instruments. Another thing ,when I eq, sometimes cutting can be more useful than boosting. I usually cut a DB or 2, 200Hz,mid to high Q(bandwidth) on all guitars for clarity. Just set the frequency and cut, then play with the Q to get it the way you want.
If your getting a good usable sound from the cab, but not the tracked sound,a different pre amp might bring you closer to what your looking/listening for. But try all the different mic placements first.
After you get a good track,set the levels and start compressing .. If you signal is hot enough (without distorting), it can take a good shot of comp,4:1 on up with a fast attack-medium release(depending on the tempo of the song), and still be blazing.Threshold settings are dependant on which comp your using and the quality of signal you have tracked and how its setting with the rest of the song..Just remember that your mixing a whole song, not just your guitars. The thing is, its way to subjective to say" just do this and this and youll get that sound",you know what I mean?
The clip you posted,(that was Saliva,..right?)was probably tracked and mixed at rightous studios. More than likely on Pro Tools. This is the difference, in my opinion, where the mid range equipment vs the high end comes out. You can get good results with mid range stuff,but there is a reason why the bad ass places pay $1-2000 per channel of mic pres and $5000 on a compressor. I heard it immediately when I bought my first kick ass pre amp. Anyway, take all this for what it is, my worthless fucking opinion.

[IronFlippy]

Could you post a clip of what you have so far?

I know a lot of the heaviness in metal comes from the bass. If you ever have the chance, try to get a hold of the separate tracks in a professional mix. Although a different style, I got the tracks to "Image of the Invisible" by Thrice (it was posted here several months ago for some contest). Just by listening to these tracks I was able to make a lot of conclusions. One of them was how much the guys voice does not sound good, but that's subjective . The tracks are still up here if you want. Other than that, I don't really have any advice. Sorry. I assume you've read Slipperman's article , seeing as how you've been on the board so so long.

[amra]

Thanks for the responses so far.
I finally got a chance to record a sample riff for some feedback. This is recorded with a 120 watt tube amp, through a 4x12 cab with a SM57 about 3 inches from the speaker cone. I am pretty happy with the tone, but I have noticed is just hard to get the "balls" in a heavy guitar tone without the "boom". Also, to my ears, it is lacking a little in highs. What do you guys think?
example

BTW, the music I like to play is along the lines of Corrosion of Conformity, Down, or Black Label Society...

[Dogman]

Originally Posted by amra

Thanks for the responses so far.
I finally got a chance to record a sample riff for some feedback. This is recorded with a 120 watt tube amp, through a 4x12 cab with a SM57 about 3 inches from the speaker cone. I am pretty happy with the tone, but I have noticed is just hard to get the "balls" in a heavy guitar tone without the "boom". Also, to my ears, it is lacking a little in highs. What do you guys think?
example

BTW, the music I like to play is along the lines of Corrosion of Conformity, Down, or Black Label Society...

Dude....all I can say is, I'm jealous of the tone you got.

It fits all 3 of the styles you listed...3 of my faves. I like it myself....

[Scottgman]

I'd try some different mics in addition to the 57. I'm amazed at the tonal qualities different mics provide. When I record my amp, I usually use 3 mics-- an e609, an md421, and an m160. Each one provides something different. For instance, I really don't like the e609 by itself, but it adds something in the mids that the other two mics just don't have.

I adjust the relative volumes of those three tracks until I like the tone and then mix them down to a single track. You can then EQ that single track if you want to roll off the lows or make room for the snare or whatever.

I think using a single mic sounds kind of flat or one dimensional. I guess it can be great for some things, but not so much if you are going for that huge guitar sound.

[hiwatt357]

Originally Posted by amra

Thanks for the responses so far.
I finally got a chance to record a sample riff for some feedback. This is recorded with a 120 watt tube amp, through a 4x12 cab with a SM57 about 3 inches from the speaker cone. I am pretty happy with the tone, but I have noticed is just hard to get the "balls" in a heavy guitar tone without the "boom". Also, to my ears, it is lacking a little in highs. What do you guys think?
example

BTW, the music I like to play is along the lines of Corrosion of Conformity, Down, or Black Label Society...

Funny...because when I heard the clip after reading your post, the first song I though of was "Big Problems" by C.O.C.

[Gnash5150]

I can't wait to hear what a mastering engineer will do for my tone in a mix! I think your wanting to hear the same thing. Your tone sounds cool! I take alot of those lows out when tracking. Keep that guitar from hoggin the bass line! Man, I wouldn't give up my 57 on my cab for anything! I've recently been adding a condensor for a (little) bit of variance, for leads and melodies only. Make 'em take up a different frequency range than the others. I only start to dig my (rhyhm) sound after it's been doubled exactly. When I lay down a track, I immedietly lay down a double. Don't even stop to have a smoke! Lay that bitch down again! Then pan em hard! Smoke out and listen! A fart will sound baddass doubled!