Mastering, compression = crappy sounding crash cymbols

[little guy]

I'm not sure about this one, but it's been plagueing me. I'll do my final mixdown to wav. the volume is at about 23 db RMS. I'll use my normalizer in SF8 to raise the overall RMS to 16 db. In doing the it adds compression to keep the mix from clipping as the RMS is raised. the thing is my crash cymbols take most of the heat during the compression and they lose there attack. they just sound off. the compression takes the life out of them. oh basically any cymbol now that i think of it. my hihats too sound a bit off. i'm wondering if it's because i have them to loud in my original mix. does anyone have any suggestions on what to do. thanks.

[mshilarious]

Normalizing shouldn't compress, it should just be a gain change. However I would not recommend normalizing as part of mastering. Instead, set a gain change to leave about 3dB of headroom, then have a listen at the proper volume, and make EQ changes as needed. If you still need compression, then compress. If not, and you're happy with your EQ, then gently use a limiter to raise your peaks to 0dB. Ideally the limiter isn't doing much more than 0.3dB of limiting.

That's a simplified and basic approach. Try out the DIY mastering clinic if you'd like to try you hand at a track and compare with other people's results.

[Dr Biscuits]

Hey little guy - some normalizing plugs do also add a compression option if you're pushing the gain too high, and usually this compresson is awful. I'd second mshilarious's opinion and not use 'normalizing' in mastering - it sounds like you may need to go back to the mix stage to apply specific (better) compression to the drums and get your mix a little closer to how you want it in the end rather than working with just the stereo mixdown - then you can raise the over all level in SF.

[little guy]

thanks for the help!

[Farview]

That normalizer in SF does add compression if you are in RMS mode, but it does suck.

Normally the kick and snare get beat up in compression and limiting, your cymbals might be too loud.

[little guy]

i have a feeling that i'm going to have to take my mixing one step further. take such tracks like my cymbols, compress them separately if needed and get them down. one question. let's say my my kick and snare... aw heck, let's say all the elements in my song peak a 6 db, what should my cymbals peak at. i think i might have them cranked in relationship to the rest of my mix.

[Reggie]

The rule goes (aren't they teaching this anymore in school? ) : Cymbals should peak at a value not to exceed +/-1dbDs λ^π / √(s/Κ^²) where λ=peak to RMS of entire mix, s=snare peak value, and Κ=kick peak value.

I don't want to totally spoon-feed you the answer, so I'll leave plugging in the numbers to you.
Have fun

[little guy]

they might teach that at a school for audio engineering... i've never taken any classes on this stuff.... all self taught with help from forums and making mistakes.

[FALKEN]

I don't get what the big deal is about not normalizing. I do it all the time. How is limiting preferred over normalizing? The sound of limiting makes me seasick and naseous. what's wrong with normalizing your song up?

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

I don't get what the big deal is about not normalizing. I do it all the time. How is limiting preferred over normalizing? The sound of limiting makes me seasick and naseous. what's wrong with normalizing your song up?

It's because the EQ isn't finished. When you correct EQ settings, you can create overs in a 0dB normalized mix, even if you only cut. So if you normalize before all other processing is complete, then normalize to -3dB or so, that should be plenty of room.

I agree with a lot of limiting sounding like poo, but I don't think a fraction of a decibel is harmful, especially since that is probably only hitting every 10 sec., or even less often.

[Reggie]

If you can even hear (let alone hear it sound like poo) something like the Universal Audio Precision Limiter working to catch occassional stray peaks, I will give you a cookie.

I think the whole reason why people typically call normalizing bad, is because the context it is being used is wrong. If you are making a final mix, open the wave file up, normalize it, Eq and compress it, and then limit it; then you are just adding an unnecessary processing step. And the more digital sound processing that can be avoided, the better (not to mention the whole headroom issue).

At work, I often need to normalize masters to -10db to avoid overloading the duplicated tape later. It is a lot quicker than guessing how much I need to reduce the gain by or watching a limiter and avoid pushing it too hard. But in my instance I am not wanting to affect dynamics at all, so a limiter is uncalled for.

But if normalizing is all you got to push your mix up in level, then by all means. It beats overloading your mix and clipping in the software.

[Reggie]

And how the eff did you get so many green chiklets so fast? I liked your red ones better.

[FALKEN]

okay I gotcha. I always save normalizing for last, so I'm not doing anything wrong.

I don't know how I got the green ones so fast. I only got a few positive reps but they seemed to multiply each other. This never happened before...it must have something to do with my number of posts or join date making the green ones count more than the red ones.

we should get together sometime so I can get that cookie.

[Reggie]

Ha. Pfft.
Alright, give me your address and I will send you the cookie. reddog1299 at hotmail dot com

You probably don't even like the sound of tape softening the transients either. Freak!

[Farview]

Originally Posted by little guy

i have a feeling that i'm going to have to take my mixing one step further. take such tracks like my cymbols, compress them separately if needed and get them down. one question. let's say my my kick and snare... aw heck, let's say all the elements in my song peak a 6 db, what should my cymbals peak at. i think i might have them cranked in relationship to the rest of my mix.

The relationship of cymbals vs. drums varies with the style of music, but there is no way that a cymbal transient should be anywhere near the loudest thing in a mix. If the kick and snare are peaking at -6dbfs, my snare in the overheads is peaking at -12dbfs (depending) If I am doing something with programmed drums, the cymbals are sitting about -18dbfs.

This all varies with the density of the mix and the style of music.

[Reggie]

OK, OK, I'm feeling guilty now, so I guess my fun is up. That little formula that I put up there, it may be the type of definite answer you are looking for but....it is completely made up and false. Your ears are the only suitable gauge for how loud your cymbals should be, along with the need to leave headroom below zero when the rest of your mix is added in.


Although, someone might check me on that formula. I'm not 100% certain that it is false.

[little guy]

i have a feeling that i have my cymbals entirely too loud. i think most of my problem right now is that i'm trying to do too many things at once. i've been working on arranging and mixing and then trying to quickly "master" just so i can post my changes and updates as soon as possible. i should break it down in to steps.

-Arrange / compose

-mix and get everything juuuuuuuuuuuuusssst right

-then worry about getting to mastering

[FALKEN]

I love the sound of tape.

I track to it and mix to it.

In fact, I have a thread going in the analog forum because my 32 died and I can't seem to bring it back to life. Its totally depressing. and I have a mix due!! I will probably end up having to mix into the converters and I am dreading it. maybe you can help me out.

(btw, there is a huge difference between limiting and clipping. clipping shaves off the top. limiting drops out the bottom)

little guy,

I think you are getting on the right track. get it mixed the best you can. that way you won't be trying to compensate for getting ahead of yourself.

[Reggie]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

limiting drops out the bottom

Okay....mulling this one over....thinking....thinking....alright, I give. What do you mean by this? Are you talking crazy nutso constant gain reduction limiting? Or the negative slope of the wave? Or WTH?

For your problem, rent a mixer? There oughta be somewhere where you can have access to a Mackie 8-buss or something. Some sound company, university, mobile DJ thing? Otherwise you are going to need the best free plugins you can find (assuming you don't already have some to use), and I just might know a few.


**************
Edit: OK, just checked your thread. For some reason I thought you were having mixer trouble with a Mackie 32-channel 8-bus or whatever. On your machine....Uh....maybe you could record to digital for this time only? It won't hurt too bad, I promise. But what was the reason for not using the ebay machine for the mechanical workings and putting heads and the audio section from your broke machine into it; instead of trying to guess which parts need to be replaced with parts from the ebay machine. I'm afraid I have no idea what you should try, apart from killing yourself. That always seems to work.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If you're cymbals are too hot after you boost your overall gain, why can't you cool them off inthe mix before you do your boost? There are several options: you can pull back on the cymbals before you mixdown either via gain, compression or EQ, or you can shape the sound after mixdown but before the RMS boost via EQ or narrowband compression.

G.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by Reggie

Okay....mulling this one over....thinking....thinking....alright, I give. What do you mean by this?

ok. when a signal is clipped the peak is just lopped off right?

the way a limiter works is when the signal exceeds the threshold, a gain reduction is applied. meaning the whole signal is attentuated, not just the peaks.

like when you're listening to the radio...sometimes when the singer's voice comes in the rest of the music gets quieter...same idea. on a limiter, which normally has an extremely fast release time, it can get really bad. which leads to my comment about seasickness. it might also explain why the OP's cymbals are sounding so bad. lengthening the release time to smooth things out might do the trick.

Originally Posted by Reggie

But what was the reason for not using the ebay machine for the mechanical workings and putting heads and the audio section from your broke machine into it; instead of trying to guess which parts need to be replaced with parts from the ebay machine. I'm afraid I have no idea what you should try, apart from killing yourself. That always seems to work.

I am about at that point.

I might swap the heads into the ebay machine; its still an option. whatever works.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

the way a limiter works is when the signal exceeds the threshold, a gain reduction is applied. meaning the whole signal is attentuated, not just the peaks.

Hello???? Hello???? Are you awake, Falken, or are you sleeptyping as a side effect of the Ambien again?

G.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Hello???? Hello???? Are you awake, Falken, or are you sleeptyping as a side effect of the Ambien again?

G.

I wish I had ambien. what am I missing?

[FALKEN]

oh; ok;

I think I know where I lost you.

what I mean is that even the low-level material in the signal is attentuated. so say you have a quiet bass line with a loud vocal. when the vocal gets smacked by the limiter, so does the bass.

if you just clip the signal instead. the bass will stay put and only the vocal will get wacked.

get it ?

[Reggie]

well....I'm thinking you have heard some bad limiter usage that turned you sour at some point. Smacking a vocal against the final brickwall digital limiter is not going to give a good sound. I tend to use a limiter to catch those ultra fast transients that seem to appear when recording to a digital medium, that are too fast to actually hear as a dynamic part; and occassionally hold down the drums when things get out of hand on a big part or something. Pushing any kind of continuous sound into a limiter is just bad. And not good.
And as far as release times, typically the shorter the crappier. On those fast things I was talking about, you typically won't notice. But fast release times will totally crappy-up your music if you are pushing into it very much at all.
That is why I like UA's Precision Lim. It has an Auto release function that is very good for full mix material. goes fast on the fast stuff, and slower on the slow stuff.

Clipping the signal can actually work in low doses and certain circumstances through certain convertors, but squaring off too many sound waves can really dull down a mix (square waves don't work so hot coming through speakers; not very efficient). And about the only time I have heard clipping not suck is to get the tops of the snare or maybe toms. Kick=crap, guitars=crap, vox=crap, bass=crap when digitally clipped even a little. Or were you talking analog clipping?