automation in sonar

[osion]

Hi,
I use sonar 2.2.
I mix and edit my music projects at low decibel levels such as -30. When I am finished with the song and ready to bounce/export it I increase the decibel levels to as high as I can go without clipping. My question is this. I've started using automation on the volume when I mix to vary the volume from -35 to -30 decibels on a particular track lets say. When I increase all the decibel levels right before I export the audio, the automation stays on the -35 to -30 field and doesn't rise to the 0 - +5 field. Is there a way to increase the level of the automation??
Thanks

[Creamyapples1]

I would think you should be able to just re"record" the automation at the appropriate levels that you desire. I use CW HS V4.0XL and I've used the automation on the tracks, then decided I wanted something different, and this worked for me.

[dachay2tnr]

I assume you mean the automation is on the Master Bus?

I haven't used it on the Master, but with Track Automation generally you can simply raise the entire automation envelope. In Track View, select the track to highlight it, after which all the nodes on the automation envelope should be highlighted. At this point you should be able to "grab" the envelope with your mouse (click and hold) and raise the entire thing. This works with Track Automation and I assume the same would apply to Bus Automation (I'm at work and can't test it).

Now my question is, why are doing this in the first place? The only thing I can think of is that you are in an apartment or something and can't work at normal volumes. However, I don't understand why you don't just turn your speakers down.

Also, it is generally a rule of thumb that for best results you should be monitoring at 85db. Not sure how well your mix is going to translate when mixed at very low listening levels.

[metalhead28]

Why don't you just decrease the master volume when you are mixing, and then maximize that when you are done. That way all of your automation will still be applicable and your track levels will still be suitable.

As far as increasing the level of the automation....don't you have an envelope in your track view that you can just drag up to the appropriate volume?

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by metalhead28

Why don't you just decrease the master volume when you are mixing,

To my recollection, automation overrrides the fader setting. In other words, whatever setting the fader is at will be changed based on the automation setting. The envelope is absolute, not relative to the fader setting.

In fact, this is the exact problem he is having.

[metalhead28]

Originally Posted by dachay2tnr

To my recollection, automation overrrides the fader setting. In other words, whatever setting the fader is at will be changed based on the automation setting. The envelope is absolute, not relative to the fader setting.

In fact, this is the exact problem he is having.

I thought he was lowering the volume on individual tracks while mixing, and his automation related to those lower volumes.
He said something about automation on a particular track and having to raise the volumes on all of the tracks after mixing....that's what alluded me to this.

That's why I mentioned lowering the master volume instead.

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by metalhead28

I thought he was lowering the volume on individual tracks while mixing, and his automation related to those lower volumes.
He said something about automation on a particular track and having to raise the volumes on all of the tracks after mixing....that's what alluded me to this.

That's why I mentioned lowering the master volume instead.

I took it that he was lowering the master volume, and then tried to put automation on the master bus.

I assumed that was why his volume level was reverting to the automation settings - since the automation will override the fader setting (on the same track or bus).

Personally, I never use automation on the master bus. Generally I try and automate the individual tracks. If I find I'm clipping the master at any points, I try and locate the offending track (usually it is one track causing it) and adjust the envelope on that track, rather than the entire mix.

[osion]

Thanks for the replies guys.

ok i got it, before when I clicked on the envelope to drag it up it only moved the node, or the area between two nodes, not the entire envelope from beginning to end. What i was doing wrong is I was highlighting the trackname, not the clip. When I click on and highlight the clip and move a node then everything goes up and down together.

You're right Dachay2tnr, I have a home studio in my apartment so I have to try to keep the volumes down. The reason I don't just turn the speakers lower is because i don't know how. I have a audiophile soundcard and Yorkville YSMP1 speakers. The speakers don't have a volume fader on them. I tried turning the speakers down using the M-Audio Delta control panel but nothing happened.

How can I tell how what level of db I am monitoring at? This may be a dumb question but isn't the volume in Sonar measured in decibels and it goes up to +6? Does 85 db refer to something else?

Thanks again metalhead28, dachay2tnr, and Creamyapples1 for the replies.

[JeffLancaster]

Originally Posted by osion

How can I tell how what level of db I am monitoring at? This may be a dumb question but isn't the volume in Sonar measured in decibels and it goes up to +6? Does 85 db refer to something else?

This is referring to dbu, the actual sound pressure level in the room. The way to know the level you are monitoring at is by measuring it with a sound pressure level meter. 85dbu is a generally accepted standard for a good level to monitor/mix at.

[metalhead28]

I'm still not sure if you are refering to the master bus where you are applying automation or an individual track. It almost sounds like you are not using a master bus.

[osion]

I was referring to automating individual tracks. I do not know what a master bus is. I am guessing that the master bus is what all the tracks in the project go through and applying automation to the master bus would automate every track in the project.

[JeffLancaster]

Originally Posted by osion

I was referring to automating individual tracks. I do not know what a master bus is. I am guessing that the master bus is what all the tracks in the project go through and applying automation to the master bus would automate every track in the project.

Yes - that's what a master bus is, and if you're not using one then you're making things harder than they need to be. Not sure if Sonar 2.2 is exactly the same, but here's how you do a master bus in Sonar 4: Right click in the console view and select "New stereo bus". Give it the name "Master". Then assign the output of each of you individual tracks to Master, and the output of your Master bus to your soundcard outputs. Then you can do as Metalhead suggested, and just raise/lower the one individual slider to adjust the volume you want to mix at.

[dachay2tnr]

My recollection is the the Universal Bus Routing was not introduced until Sonar 3. I believe all you had were Aux Busses (sends) and the sound card outputs (Main Bus). However, there should still be a fader on the Main Bus(es) - in which case, you can do exactly as Metalhead suggested. Just lower the Main Fader and leave the track levels at their normal position.

So the question is, what do you have your track outputs routed to?

My recollection of Sonar 2 is a little vague, but at the bottom-right of track view, you should see a little icon that looks like a rectangle with an arrow in it. If you hover the mouse over it, it should read Show/Hide Bus View (or something like that). Click the icon, and you should be able to see your Busses. The screen will be split veritically - tracks on top and busses on bottom.

Find the Main Bus to where your tracks are output and simply lower the fader. This will lower the main volume without having to do any adjustments to the tracks (I can't believe what a pain this must have been for you).

If you have trouble finding the Bus View, go to Console View and you will see your Main Busses to the far right of the screen. You can adjust the fader there as well.

[jamie_drum]

Originally Posted by osion

The reason I don't just turn the speakers lower is because i don't know how. I have a audiophile soundcard and Yorkville YSMP1 speakers. The speakers don't have a volume fader on them. I tried turning the speakers down using the M-Audio Delta control panel but nothing happened.

I have the same sound card although different monitors. You should look into getting a small mixer or a monitor controller to control your monitors.

In my own case, I opted for a small mixer. I got the Soundcraft Compact 4 for CAN $199 and am pretty happy with it. It is well suited to computer recording. It has phono (ie RCA) inputs and outputs in addition to 1/4" which matches up well with the inputs and outputs on the Audiophile 2496.

One advantage of not going directly to your monitors is that you can control separate levels for the monitors, and say, headphones. Although I don't use the preamps on my mixer for recording, I do route the output from my Line 6 PodXt Live to the mixer for zero latency monitoring when I am recording over the XT Live's USB input--another advantage of a mixer.

I also thought seriously about the Samson C-Control . Check out the reviews at Sound on Sound.

[osion]

Yeah, I found the main bus and from now on I'll just use that to lower the volume instead of going track by track. I've been using the program for about three years and its embarrasing how I don't know some rather basic stuff. I've also just found out they came out with sonar 5. I bought Sonar 2 about three or four years ago and they're already up to 5. That's crazy.

Outside of buying a separate hardware unit, is there another way to control the volume on the monitors?

Thanks again guys, i've always thought this forum was awesome in how intelligent, knowledgable guys are so friendly in sharing information and helping out less knowledgable people like myself.

[theglitch]

2.2 does NOT have a master bus, per se.

The answer is to press 'O' for offset mode. Then make your adjustments.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by theglitch

2.2 does NOT have a master bus, per se.

The answer is to press 'O' for offset mode. Then make your adjustments.

Sure it does - a stereo bus fader for each of the s/c outs. If you route all your tracks to one of them and name it 'master' it'll se' just fine.

"Offset's cool too but it would still be easier to grab the one fader.
Wayne

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by mixsit

If you route all your tracks to one of them and name it 'master' it'll se' just fine.

I don't think ver. 2.2 allows you to name the Mains. They are hard configured to the sound card outputs.

Regardless, if the individual tracks are routed to a pair of the sound card outs, they act as the master, and as you note, they have a fader control on them.

Offset doesn't make much sense in this particular situation.

[mixsit]

Yeah it turns out you can name and or assign them as well. (I had to go and try it though. It's been a while. Still have 2.2, 3 and 4 all on the pc.
Not sure if that makes me lazy, sentimental, maybe.
Wayne

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by mixsit

Not sure if that makes me lazy, sentimental, maybe.
Wayne

At a minimum, it apparently makes you rich in available hard drive real estate.