Mutt Lange Background Vocals

[hobbestheprince]

Ok, I know this has probably been asked a billion times, so perhaps I'm beating a dead horse here ... but I'm looking for some advice nonetheless.

I am using Cool Edit Pro, and I've tried this technique but was basically on my own doing it. I've been trying to get that "Mutt Lange" sound for the backup vocals ... not necessarily Def Leppard stuff, but moreso those parts in Shania Twain songs. Here are a few examples:

The part when the background vocals are saying, "Gonna getcha" on "Gonna Getcha Good" from her Up! album.

And the part when the bgv's sing, "and there ain't no wayyyyyy" on "Forever and for Always" on her Up! album.

Now, I realize I have to record quite a few tracks for each harmony, but I get stuck on "rolling of the lows and boosting the highs" and stuff ... this is probably EQ I'm talking about. Cool Edit has a graphic equalizer with all of the slides right there, I'm not sure where to boost really, and when I did it on my own it became super hissy and the words were barely audible. Another thing I was wondering, is the compression. Can I just use a vocal comp, and keep redoing the vocal comp? I don't know why I have to do it more than once, but I read somewhere that Mutt compresses the sound ALOT.

Lastly, for the other harmonies I read that I have to delay the other bgv's about a millisecond, otherwise there will be some phasing that occurs. In the Cool Edit Pro's Delay section, I can put 1 ms, but it also asks what percentage in the mix or something like that for right and left channel. Should it be 50%, or 100%? I tried both, but didn't really notice any difference.

I really hope you guys can help me out, I've been recording stuff for a few years, so I know my way around the program fairly well, it's more the technical "speak" that throws me off. I just really love that robotish type sound, it's very sharp and adds alot of punch to the choruses .. that, and my girlfriend is a big Shania fan, it'd blow her away if I can even get close to mimicking something like this.

Thanks for your time, any comments and tips are certainly welcome.

-Eric

[ocnor]

There is really no big trick to it. You just record each harmony several times and pan them left and right. Don't use the graphic EQ use the Parametric EQ. Try the channel strip low cut setting. You shouldn't have to boost the highs if you record it correctly. It sounds robotic because that's how she is singing it not because of some cryptic effect. The compressor in Cool Edit bites so try to avoid it. If your version of Cool Edit doesn't support VST plugins then get a VST Wrapper. If you want to delay a track then go to the "track properties" and offset it how ever many miliseconds you want.

Here are some free VST plugins the compressor works very well.http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-series.php

[hobbestheprince]

I know Voxvendor has some really good insight as well, but he didn't reply to any e-mail or message. I'd be even happy with the Def Leppard sound, kinda like in the cars song "Magic." I love that song.

[TexRoadkill]

Just do at least 4-8 tracks and you should be getting close. On the Def Leppard stuff they would do dozens of overdubs.

The dry/wet settings determine how much of the original (dry) or effected (wet) signal you hear. If the goal is to delay the track completely then you only want to hear the Wet signal.

[RezN8]

I remember hearing Mutt was a huge fan of the Eventide harmonizers:

http://www.eventide.com/profaud/harm.htm

[bigtoe]

i've heard he doubles/triples the vox using the same voice...not three different voices on the same note.

Mike

[Farview]

The def lepard sound was dozens of tracks that were performed very tightly. There is no room for slop when you have 20 or 30 of the same thing layered. You will also have to take out quite a bit of lows and lower mids when doing this. Things get muddy in a hurry.

[hobbestheprince]

Regarding the "getting rid of lows and boosting highs" normally I do it in the graphic equalizer, I'll attach a picture here. Would I pull all of the sliders on the left all the way down and the ones on the right all the way up? And is there a rough estimate as to where I should boost them, say starting at 1K?

Here's the pic so you have an idea of what I'm looking at as well.

Example

[Harvey Gerst]

Pull down the sliders that make the music sound bad; push up the sliders that make the music sound good. Push the sliders up one at a time and listen. Does the music sound better? Leave it up and go to the next slider. If pushing the slider up makes the music worse, pull it down and see if that makes things better. If it doesn't seem to make any difference, leave it in the middle.

[hobbestheprince]

I tried isolating the music in this song to show what I'm aiming for ... it sounds almost robotic, which is really cool. Any tips on how to achieve this kinda of sound? And one more question, if I keep compressing the sound over and over (I read Mutt compresses the stuff like crazy) what does that do to the overall sound? Does compressing play a huge part in all this?

Here's the example

[hobbestheprince]

bump bump bump

[TexRoadkill]

That sounds more like a filter or phaser type effect.

[mcolling]

agreed-- the clip definitely sounds like it was processed with a phaser-type effect. Also, it seems like it has been doubled or tripled, giving it a chorusy sound. I don't know that it sounds overly eq-ed-- possibly some (like 5-10 dbs) low-mids were rolled off.

[hobbestheprince]

how would i go about rolling off low-mids?

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by Harvey Gerst

Pull down the sliders that make the music sound bad; push up the sliders that make the music sound good. Push the sliders up one at a time and listen. Does the music sound better? Leave it up and go to the next slider. If pushing the slider up makes the music worse, pull it down and see if that makes things better. If it doesn't seem to make any difference, leave it in the middle.

Holy shit that is good advice.

Everyone read this again, twice.

You have a way of cutting through the bs, Harvey.

[ocnor]

Originally Posted by Harvey Gerst

Pull down the sliders that make the music sound bad; push up the sliders that make the music sound good. Push the sliders up one at a time and listen. Does the music sound better? Leave it up and go to the next slider. If pushing the slider up makes the music worse, pull it down and see if that makes things better. If it doesn't seem to make any difference, leave it in the middle.

That's priceless! You should write manuals for Behringer.

[hobbestheprince]

i was just wondering what K i would put the sliders down. ah well.

[ez_willis]

Originally Posted by hobbestheprince

i was just wondering what K i would put the sliders down. ah well.

That is the beauty of Harveys post.

Every vocal will be different on different sets of gear.

Let your ears tell you what sounds best, not some knucklehead in cyberspace.

If someone tells you the frequency that they would cut/boost and it sounds like shit, are you going to keep it like it is, post again for someone elses recommendation, or start twisting knobs? DON'T ANSWER THAT!!!

Twist the knobs. Pretend like it's a nipple if you have to.

[hobbestheprince]

Originally Posted by ez_willis

Twist the knobs. Pretend like it's a nipple if you have to.

I tried everything ... when i boost the highs, it's really static sounding. that's why i wish voxvendor would come to the rescue.

[peopleperson]

Anyone remember that VH1 "story of Def Leppard" where Anthony Michael Hall is Mutt Lange? He gets that vocal sound with three takes in about twenty seconds.....wow.

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally Posted by peopleperson

Anyone remember that VH1 "story of Def Leppard" where Anthony Michael Hall is Mutt Lange? He gets that vocal sound with three takes in about twenty seconds.....wow.

In reality, Mutt Lange takes a very long time to get the sounds he wants - a VERY long time.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by hobbestheprince

I tried everything ... when i boost the highs, it's really static sounding. that's why i wish voxvendor would come to the rescue.

According to Harvey's advise, don't boost the highs if it sounds bad. The lower mids that need to be cut will be anywhere from 150hz to about 900hz. It all depends on what the vocals sound like to begin with. Even if Mutt were to tell you exactly how he set everything, it wouldn't work for you because you aren't working with Shania's voice.

Remember that there are more positions on a graphic EQ fader than all the way up and all the way down.

You might want to switch to a parametric EQ instead of a graphic one.

[Harvey Gerst]

For an interesting insight into the way Mutt Lange works, go to Terry Manning's forum at:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php??SQ=

and scroll down to the 3 page Mutt Lange thread.

[hobbestheprince]

i'm gonna have to get more familiar with the parametric eq, i haven't wrapped my head around that one yet.

i can see what you guys are saying, there's no real formula for this sort of thing, it's all in our ears and getting the closest results possible. i looked everywhere for sites on eq and what role it really plays in recording and mixing and such ... but i can't find anything concrete or at least put into lamens terms.

[Farview]

Maybe what you need to do is:
1. run a CD through a graphic EQ.
2. one by one push each fader up and listen to what it does, then put it back.
3. do this with every fader.
4. start again, only this time bring the fader down and listen.
5. repeat until you know what the different frequency bands do.