dropout!!!!

[FALKEN]

got a dropout this weekend!!! aaaahhh!!!!

out of three tapes only one song....one of the keepers, after I overdubbed guitars and bass when I was playing it back I got a dropout.

Its really strange too, it makes the tape lifters hiccup....even in rw or ff. I thought there might be something sticky on the tape but I ran my fingers on it and didn't find it. I shined a flashlight on it but couldn't see it. but all 6 drum tracks get garbled for about one second in one song. arrrghh!!!! is there any way to fix this??? Is it possible that it is from the tape stretching out???

[Beck]

New tape?

What kind?

[FALKEN]

was using brand new GP9 but the machine isn't set up for it. so I've been getting a helluvalot of brown stuff; so I'v ebeen cleaning the heads, etc. about every 4 hours or so. I guess it wasn't enough. I think I am going to have to set my machine up to do this permanently, I really like the results so far. I think the tape might have stretched perhaps? I was trying to do some punches and I think that stopping and starting in the middle of the song might have stretched the tape out??? the tempo doesn't seem to waver though, just the audio.

I was also smoking in the room; I don't know if that has an effect or not. But I've seen pictures of consoles from the 70's that had built in ash trays so it can't be all THAT bad.

[Beck]

I think everything had built-in ashtrays in the 70's, except maybe church pues.

GP9 would be hard to stretch unless something is wrong with your tension. It isn’t known for excessive oxide shedding either. 499 is though.

Did you get it new from a trusted source?

Any type of tape could have a bad spot I suppose, but at 15 ips it shouldn’t be so noticeable. An obstruction, like a remnant of shedding from old tape (or a cigarette butt ) could have been stuck on the head while it was recording on that segment.

Smoking is worse for electronics than it is for you, but probably not a factor in your current problem. Beer or peanut butter & jelly will gum up the works too. (so will gum)

[FALKEN]

yeah; I got it from USR. I don't get it!!!! I thought I heard a couple dropouts on some other songs but after cleaning the heads everything was back to normal. This one song is really fooked though. you can hear the spot that its fooked too without the monitors on.....just the sound of the tape rolling through the machine is inconsistent at that one point...but I can't feel or see anything......

[FALKEN]

as ALWAYS beck WAS RIGHT.

it is a bad tape.


how did I find this out?

I got ANOTHER DROPOUT on ANOTHER SONG which happened to be RIGHT NEXT TO THE FIRST SONG THAT GOT DROPOUT. And then I realized that the tape I was using was only 27 minutes long. And then I realized that it was the first tape I ever used on this machine...when it was DIRTY AS HELL. On which I recorded one song and then clipped it off the reel. I SHOULDN'T HAVE USED THIS REEL but now I'm SCREWED because my 11 song ALBUM is now only 9 SONGS. CRAP. This last song does have a backup drum take...but guess what? its the take RIGHT BEFORE the song that just got a dropout. and its like a 10 second dropout too...the FIRST SIX CHANNELS (all of the drums) go half volume for about 10 seconds.....guitars and vocals on tracks 10-14 are fine. crap. I really don't want to lose any more songs and There are three other songs on that reel that I really would like to hang on to. you know, takes that it took the drummer an hour to get right.....

sorry for all the shouting...its just that i'm FRUSTRATED right now. Is there anything else I can do to prevent losing more songs off this reel??? This is probably the best recording I've ever made with my band.....I would hate to have to redo all of the songs for continuity's sake.....ah i am heartbroken. this is the exact reason I gave up my 4-track and got a digital setup 6 years ago......... eh that song wasn't so great anyway.... but I REALLY CAN'T AFFORD to lose anymore songs off this reel!!!!!! the good songs end at about 7:50 and the dropouts start around 20:00....should I clip the tape????

[FALKEN]

no ideas here?

is there no way to get the gunk off the tape?

[Muckelroy]

If it's THAT important to you, you might consider taking it to a professional media restoration center. They have equipment that cleans magentic tape inch by inch without messing up the oxide at all. They could probably vacuum-bake it too, and maybe scrounge up a tape machine to play it back on, to get a nice clean play of it, maybe to a digital transfer.

That's one of the inherent problems with analog. Only one pure copy of a recording can ever exist in the analog realm. And if something happens to that copy, oops.

If it's a complete MUTE dropout, that's bad.

If the dropout still has some negligible sound at that point, you could MAYBE dump it to a digital editor, and zoom in on that section to turn up the gain envelope on JUST that one part, so that perhaps it will sound a little cleaner. MAYBE.

That's what I'd suggest.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

no ideas here?

is there no way to get the gunk off the tape?

This goes back to one of my ancient posts about how new tape can “catch” sticky shed from old tape.

It doesn’t actually change the new tape chemically, but just contaminates it with particles from the old tape, so in that way the new tape might as well be old sticky tape.

(With acetate-based tape, “vinegar syndrome” can be passed from tape to tape, more like a disease, but that’s another story.)

You should try running the tape in FFW with a lent-free cloth or folded paper towel covering the heads. This is a step I add that I don’t usually see in sticky-shed guides. It will clean off any residue left over after baking. There is often a lot of oxide and fragments left over that will still contaminate the tape path. Of course GP9 never needs baking, but in this case needs cleaning.

If you use cloth, you can dampen it with the same 90% plus alcohol you use to clean heads (even 70% will do for cleaning tape). If you do this run it a second time dry. Alcohol will not harm GP9 or 456.

How you affix this cloth in place will vary from machine to machine. I remove the plastic head cover and wrap a folded paper towel as far as it will go around the head block (but not the scrape guides at either end – just the heads and lifters). The cloth should be just a bit wider than the tape itself. You can hold it in place by hand while the tape runs through.


If your dropout was created during recording by residue lifting the tape away from the record head, cleaning the tape will not bring it back (because it was never there). You should still clean the tape and machine to rid your system of any shedding.

If the dropout is part of the recording process you will have to restore it by “striking the board” (adjust the levels and EQ during mixdown). Alternately (and more easily) you can fix it once it’s in the digital realm.

-Tim

[FALKEN]

OH MAN THANKS A MILLION.


I will try this right away!!


the tape recorded fine, it just got a dropout while doing overdubs (but only on the pre-recorded tracks!).


Even if I can't bring back the two songs, It would be nice to not lose anymore!!


yes this tape got infected

and it might infect my other tapes that are from the same session!!!

I will try the paper towel thing!!

I also will probably snip the bad half of the tape just as an extra precaution.


thanks a million!!!!!

i'll let you know how it comes out.

you are now on my list of people to buy a beer for when my band goes on the road!!!

[arjoll]

Originally Posted by Beck

You should try running the tape in FFW with a lent-free cloth or folded paper towel covering the heads. This is a step I add that I don’t usually see in sticky-shed guides. It will clean off any residue left over after baking. There is often a lot of oxide and fragments left over that will still contaminate the tape path. Of course GP9 never needs baking, but in this case needs cleaning.

The guy I used to bake the 12 year old 456 I transferred to digital last year has a seriously modified VHS tape cleaner that he uses to clean excess gunk off the tape after baking. There's usually a pretty reasonable amount of oxide left over. The end results are great though.

[Muckelroy]

........................OR you can scratch my professional media restoration idea,

and do THAT

-callie-

[Beck]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

you are now on my list of people to buy a beer for when my band goes on the road!!!

................

[FALKEN]

so I'm doing everything Beck said...

and gunk is coming off...

and I am doing it real good to the part with the dropout,

and i could'nt get it fixed. ah well.

lets salvage what we got. so I begin the process of cleaning each tape with a paper towel, and cleaning the reel hub too, with alcohol, and I am cleaning the last tape (this has taken me 3 hours) and THIS happens again. only Now its re-winding and wont stop or fast forward. it is spooling to one side hard and messing up the tape!!! I am about to just give up.

[FALKEN]

got the RR thing fixed.

one of the lifters was too tight and it couldn't move vertically.

but now the tape is spooling to the OPPOSITE side !!!

what is gonig on here???

[FALKEN]

it was the SAME probem!!

tightened up the lifeter, and now the tape is back in alignment. wow that was a close one!

now why the HELL don't they explain this stuff in the manual?????

[Muckelroy]

Damn communists.

-callie-

[FALKEN]

I keep getting random little dropouts on all of my tapes. man I am bummed.

so far I've been able to clean the machine and tape to eliminate the little ones as soon as I hear them. but the machine still gets pretty sticky after just a few plays. this is from 3-rd generation contaminated tape! tape contaminated by tape contaminated by this old test-tape. what a bummer!!!

I'll tell you what...this is never happening again!!!

but the GP9 is awesome!!! it is a little bit colder but I just couldn't get the headroom I wanted with the NR engaged....probably a user error but either way I am very happy with the sound now. if only my tapes would stay together long enough to mix them down !!

[Beck]

Getting shed out of a system is tough. I feel for you.

Another thought... are the tracks you are losing edge tracks, 1 or 16? A badly misaligned machine can literally strip tape off around the edges, leaving particles behind. These tiny pieces of tape will cause dropouts as they cycle through the tape path.

I've never experienced dropouts using 456 in all the years I've been recording, except when I discovered sticky-shed. It is tough to completely eliminate once its taken hold.

Pull out all the stops -- vacuum, blast off with compressed air and of course rigorously scrub any place the tape comes in contact using alcohol and cotton tips, or better yet chamois.

[FALKEN]

Beck,

I could deal with losing 1 and 16. I sort of planned for that *just in case* I put the drum room mics on 1 and 2 and the guitar and bass scratch tracks on 15 and 16. so nothing that is important. I am actually losing tracks 1-6, maybe more. I was doing the paper towel thing and I was getting pretty good skid marks. then last night I actually got some little pieces of tape. I've got to mix this thing quick while there is still time. I think the vocals are done at least...

But no, I am not losing the edge tracks. since I figured out how to adjust my tension arms I don't think I'll be having any rub anymore either.

do you think I should do this paper towel thing until the skid marks completely go away?? Or is once or twice through okay? Your advice is mucho appreciado.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

do you think I should do this paper towel thing until the skid marks completely go away?? Or is once or twice through okay? Your advice is mucho appreciado.

hate to bump this but I am working on it now and really could use some help....once again I am very appreciative.

[Beck]

This is a tough one to judge from a distance without seeing what is going on. I've personally never seen it this bad. I would even consider the possibility that you got a bad batch of GP9 tape.

If the tape is good you will not hurt it by running it through the cleaning process multiple times, but skip the alcohol for a couple runs and see what happens.

You may see a little oxide residue, but not much at all with GP9. So if there’s a lot of residue it is contamination from the old tape or your GP9 has a problem.

Does everthing else look in order... your pinch roller isn't falling apart, I hope.

[FALKEN]

when i wipe the roller with windex, it does come off grey....but its not sticky or anything...but nots not hard like the other rollers either. not sure if that is normal or not. but the "skid marks" are brown...

[FALKEN]

those are without alcohol. no chance it was bad GP9. I got a sticky test tape with the machine, which I used when I first got it. Not knowing anything about shed, I proceeded to record my first song on GP9 (all that was available at the time). I ran into problems and basically cut that song off the tape (there was a shortage). I wasn't supposed to use the other half of the reel but after about a year I totally forgot and used it....I guess it was contaminated.

When I first got the machine, I loaded the tape on the left side, because I didn't know any better. This time I loaded it on the right side, so the "sticky" part was actually concentrated at the end of the tape, where I got my first dropout. the second song to the end of the tape is where I got my second. Then I started "hearing things" on all three tapes I am using on this project and really freaked out....

[FALKEN]

I think my Left tension arm could be the problem. It is not locked into place like it should be; I can pull it out. I think it could be causing drag on the tape because with a bright flashlight I found oxide powder all around it....just a thought.