Rate the drumsound on the recording

[DxRocker]

Hi peeps.

I come from musicianforums.com

I recently installed a studio at home and am in the process of learning everything (operating the mixer, program, mic placement etc).

I have done my first attempt at a mix of a little drumrecording as an exercise.
I am still working on toms, so don't mind that, I hardly use them in this recording anyway. It's basicly just bass-snare-overheads in this one.

I got adviced on posting it on here as apparantly there are a few experts on here on recording, mixing and stuff like that. I have the feeling that something is still missing in my drumsound.

My cymbals moved a bit to the background when I did a mixdown for some reason.

So, here's the recording and tell me what you think. Thanks.

The recording

[tourettes5139]

Not bad at all. I'd like to hear more width, though. It sounds like mono to me. Are you only using one overhead? What mics are you using everywhere else?

[jonnyc]

What were your micing techniques on this? Sounds almost like just two overheards. The kick and snare have a very live sound and the cymbals do seem a bit washy and faint. Doesn't sound particularly clean either but that is probably the mp3. Also the kick might need to come up more, I'd like to hear what this sounds like in an entire mix.

[DALtune]

Sounds like some extra ringing in the toms and some of the cymbals sound very distant. How big is the room? I like to dial a little high end to the kick drum to catch a little of the slap of impact. Did you have that mic in the bass drum? Sounded like it may have bee a little to the outside.

[fritzmusic]

Sounds great so far. If this track is dry with little/no processing, then kudos on the miking. I have no clue to what style or particular sound you're going for so bear in mind that alot of advise you'll get here is subjective from all of our varying tastes (which makes this site so kewl) but we can more than help you cover the basics here. I'm gonna take this from a rock drum angle. I usually don't post advice on clips without first pulling them into the editor and spend a few minutes playing around with the particular mix with some plugs to see what applies.

I agree with tourettes5139. There needs to be more of a stereo image to this. Whatever you're doing, you're only getting a dead centered mono signal to your summed stereo track somehow, so look into your editing program or input interface capabilities to make sure you aren't doing any/everything in mono. The more spread the drums have in a mix, the better. I'm getting the perception that you only used one mic (also a compliment to your mixing levels)...so pan, pan pan ever so slightly (no more than 3 or 9 o'clock to the left or right per mic as it relates to the space it is recording) Give the signals their own little space in the stereo field..but hard panned is hard to get to sound great unless that's absolutely what you're after. Don't be afraid to catch the reverb of the room as well. That helps if the drums sound great in the room to begin with.

If you are using more than one overehead mic and a mixer, pan them around before they go onto the hdd. Pan the toms where you hear them then you can transpose tracks later to switch the channels around to give the perception of the listener being in front of the kit if you so wish to do that.

Personally I pan the mics just so that the listener feels as if they are actually sitting at my drumset...as I hear my drums when playing. It's the best way for me to mix because I know where everything is and how it's suppose to sound to me in relation to everything else. So, go with what you DO know as a solid foundation for panning.

What DALTune is hearing I think is your resonant head on your kick and I also agree that something (kick or toms) has a low-end ring to it that may need to be put in check. You can leave the low overtone as well and it would make a good signal for a subharmonic exciter to expand upon if you're looking for more low-end subs. It's all about playing your options. There are no real rules for this but just a bunch of fuzzy guidelines you can choose to follow or not.

I think you could jazz things up with some basic notch EQing in the 250 and 420 range as well as a tad down near 900/1k where the snare's overtone could be perceived as a little too present, a touch of soft knee compression/soft limiting, a little room verb maybe and a little subharmonic enhancement might get you closer to what you're looking

L8tr

[RAMI]

I think it sounds pretty damn good for a flat unprocessed recording (if that's what it is). Except for the slightly washy cymbals. Snare sounds great, I wouldn't even get rid of that ring. Bass drum lacks something, but I can't put my finger on it. Overall not bad at all.

[Raw-Tracks]

Not too shabby. Need to know more about how this was recorded before I can make any real suggestions. As always, it's hard to say much when all we are hearing is the drums. This may be absolutely perfect, or it could suck big time, depending on what the rest of the arrangement will be.

As a solo kit, I like the snare. The kick might be cool in the track. The cymbals don't sound so hot. Might need a better set of overhead mics, or preamps. Would like a stereo spread instead of mono.

[DxRocker]

Hi peeps.

Well, the dude on musicianforums.com wasn't lying... You guys give some great advice!

To answer some of your questions... I'll start out with my recording setup.

I'm using the AKG mic pack for drums:
- 2x C1000 as overheads
- C419 for toms
- D112 for bassdrum (inside the bassdrum)
- SM57 on the snare

These are hooked up to a Behringer sl2442fx-pro mixer. From there, I record them into the PC in Cakewalk HomeStudio 2004 XL with a 16i/16i audio card (= sydec mixtreme card).

I did the mixing analog though, not in the software. Just played the tracks back through the mixer and did the mixing there.

I know there is some overall ring on the sound. This comes from the tom mics, wich I didn't put any work in yet.

I also haven't bothered yet with EQ. So this recording is purely a flat mix with no effects, no processing and purely done with the high, mid and low.

The whole sound is indeed centered in the stereo mix, no pans whatsoever. I was planning on getting this to work once my toms where tuned properly. I will be putting the first two toms and the first overhead a little to the left and the other 2 toms and the second overhead a little to the right. I certainly agree that's more fun to listen to.

The room I record in is indeed rather big. I have tried to treat the room a bit for acoustics, but I was on a very thight budget, so the whole room is covered with egg cartons. I can't do any better then that for the time being.

Also, I'm a complete n00b when it comes to sound engineering. My choice of mics was done through experience on gigs. My drums were miced in the past with all sorts of mic packs and I liked this one the best, so that's what I bought. I went for an SM57 on the snare, cause imo, there is no other mic that brings a snare out like that one. Or at least, I have never seen/used one.

As for those cymbals, they are a full Istanbul Agop/Alchemy setup. These cymbals are pretty washy on their own allready, and I must say that the cymbals come out exactly as they sound when I play them. I only think I could get away with cranking up the volume a bit.

For the placement of the overheads, I tried to position them so that they mostly only pick up cymbals. They are placed about 60-70 cm above them. Each overhead tries to catch 3-4 cymbals. What I did was draw a mental rectangle with each corner in the center of the cymbals the overhead was micing and pointed the overhead to the center of that rectangle. Don't know if that made sense

[Raw-Tracks]

Originally Posted by DxRocker

- 2x C1000 as overheads

Could be a problem there. Like I said earlier, cymbals aren't happening for me. Would like to hear them panned left and right. What I'm hearing could be phase cancellation between the two mics. You say the cymbals sound like that in the room though, so maybe it's the cymbals themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd get better results with something other than the C1000's on tip though.

Really, not bad overall!

[jonnyc]

Sell those c1000's. I tried to get a good sound out of my buddies pair and I never could and it actually made him open his eyes and realize they're kinda crappy as overheads. You'd honestly probaby get a much better sound out of the mxl603's which are about the bottom of the acceptable overheads catagory. I personally use shure ksm109's and I've had the pleasure of using the russian oktava's as well, both sound great. Now if you don't want to sell the c1000's I have heard them used pretty succesfully as snare mics. IMO if you get the c1000's out of the recording and replace them with something else you'd get a much more accurate respresentation of your cymbals.

[pandamonk]

See that guys!!!BEHRINGER!! HAHAHA, LOL

[DxRocker]

As said, i'm a complete n00b on this, so I'm gonna have to ask you: What is "phase cancelation"?

And what's so funny about Behringer? It's good gear when you are on a thight budget... Exact Mackie copies with buttons made of cheaper plastic

Not gonna sell those C1000's for the time being though. I have allready put too much money into all this, so they are going to have to do the job for the time being.

Tnx.

[Raw-Tracks]

Originally Posted by DxRocker

As said, i'm a complete n00b on this, so I'm gonna have to ask you: What is "phase cancelation"?

When 2 microphones, in 2 different physical locations pickup the same sound, phase cancellation can occur due to the timing differences. When the 2 signals are combined, some frequencies are cut, others are boosted. It makes for a hollow kind of a sound.

Here I googled what looks to be a pretty good article on the subject:
http://www.kevinkemp.com/homerecordi...ial/micing.htm

[RAMI]

As far as the C-1000's are concerned, I use them and you can get a nice sound from them. Just find out for your self if they work for you. But lack of high's will not be a fault of the C-1000's, they have lots of high's, maybe too much.

[Dogman]

I'd say for a 128K Mp3, it sounds pretty good. I'm not a drummer, so no real advice, but you have a working sound. A bit of experimentation on placement of mics, and you will nail this. Sounds good right now.

[jonnyc]

Originally Posted by DxRocker

And what's so funny about Behringer? It's good gear when you are on a thight budget... Exact Mackie copies with buttons made of cheaper plastic

Uh, no its not an exact copy at all. It may look the same, and have the same wiring configuration but in no way do those two units sound the same sonically, which would be my qualification for an "exact" copy. The joke was some people think it sounds good and you used behri pre's which a lot of people around here, me included won't touch. But lets not get that mess started back up again.

[LeeRosario]

Well lets see, I'll be typing this as I listen, so I'll break it down like so:

Of course keeping in mind that I might be full of shit cause there is no such thing as a typical sound. This might be what makes your sound define you. I'm simply going to say my comments with brutal honesty, hopefully with a constructive undertone.


The overall: the image is fine. I don't feel it to be too mono, nor too wide, it simply sits firmly in the middle of the mix. However, since it's not mixed in with guitars, or bass, vocals, etc I can't tell you just how dead on it is. However, if I ask myself the commercial question "does this kit stand on it's own", then no. However, hopefully through asking questions plus some trial and error, we can help fix that.

Kick: The kick is kind of boxy. It has this flat and packed sound, combined with a slap that may be uneasy to hear. Again, it's hard to say without a full mix, cause that could be just right in a mix, but on it's own, it dosn't seem to sit well.


Snare: The overtone, it's pretty distracting. It can be controled somewhat with compression, but you might need some muting. One of the first things we lock into when we listen to the drums is the snare. If the snare is distracting and uneasy to listen to, then you've lost the sound of your entire drum set. I dig that it's heavy, plus it sounds like it's definitly metal in material, so mic selection will vary compared to the material of your snare. I personally prefer wood snares for thier warmth and body, but with the right mic, you can make almost any snare sound good.


Toms: Non exsistent. It's heard, but probably more roomy than present.


Hi hat: Usually the hi hat is kind of the catch 22. It's easy but it isn't. What you do on the hi hat can affect the snare sound, and vice versa. In this case I would say the hi hat is perhaps "too present". Like I feel the hi hat ahead of the snare in some cases.


Overheads: To my ear, some cymbals are fine and yet others are too heavy. How did you mic this? I would say its just simple EQing and leveling.


I won't ask about reverbs and FX, cause I assume there is little or none at all. So I take it as a dry pre mix track.

Other than that, not to bad. It's a heavy set kit, so probably a little more compression would help bring the beef to light (feed the need, right?).

Of course, that's just me cheers

[Me78332]

The overall playing is wonderful, but the bass drum and snare need some help, they dont seem very bold like what you may hear out of a huge recording studio, the cymbals also dont seem quite right, but overall this does sound farely decent

[DxRocker]

Hi again there.

LeeRosario, I totally dig what you are saying. Brutal honesty is what I ask for

Like said earlier, i'm a complete n00b on this stuff. I chose my drummics through experience of what I have used before on mic'd gigs and had assistance and advice of our sound engineer for the other stuff. It's also him who hooked my up with a professional 16i/16o soundcard. I got the behringer on e-bay for half the price and it was only 2 months old. As my budget was tight and me being a compelte n00b, I didn't wish to invest in top quality gear for my very first amateur studio that for the time being will only used to record the new songs at the end of rehearsels.

At the same time, I study up on all the stuff in order to maybe create my very own semi-pro studio in a few years.

You guys have all been a great help and I will definatly return here if I have any questions or problems or whatever. I know what I need to work on now.

And I indeed didn't use any effects or compressors or whatever. It wasn't even mixed on the pc. Played the traks through the mixer again and tried to get a decent sound there (without EQ, pure on high-mid-low).

I can only conclude that for a total n00b on his first attempt to a drummics, I didn't do a bad job apparantly. I know what I need to work on, tnx to you guys.

Our sound engineer passes by on the rehearsel tonight and will also give me some more pointers about mic placement, EQ-ing etc.

Maybe I'll get to recording a full song tonight. If that is the case, I'll definatly post it up here for some follow up from you peeps

Tnx again for the great help.

[LeeRosario]

Originally Posted by DxRocker

Hi again there.

LeeRosario, I totally dig what you are saying. Brutal honesty is what I ask for

Like said earlier, i'm a complete n00b on this stuff. I chose my drummics through experience of what I have used before on mic'd gigs and had assistance and advice of our sound engineer for the other stuff. It's also him who hooked my up with a professional 16i/16o soundcard. I got the behringer on e-bay for half the price and it was only 2 months old. As my budget was tight and me being a compelte n00b, I didn't wish to invest in top quality gear for my very first amateur studio that for the time being will only used to record the new songs at the end of rehearsels.

At the same time, I study up on all the stuff in order to maybe create my very own semi-pro studio in a few years.

You guys have all been a great help and I will definatly return here if I have any questions or problems or whatever. I know what I need to work on now.

And I indeed didn't use any effects or compressors or whatever. It wasn't even mixed on the pc. Played the traks through the mixer again and tried to get a decent sound there (without EQ, pure on high-mid-low).

I can only conclude that for a total n00b on his first attempt to a drummics, I didn't do a bad job apparantly. I know what I need to work on, tnx to you guys.

Our sound engineer passes by on the rehearsel tonight and will also give me some more pointers about mic placement, EQ-ing etc.

Maybe I'll get to recording a full song tonight. If that is the case, I'll definatly post it up here for some follow up from you peeps

Tnx again for the great help.

No problem


I mean seriously man, if you have any questions. You're in a good place to do so. I always try to answer some questions when I can, but Im more vanguard about it. But when Im not around there are people here who are able to give great advice as well!

[guttapercha]

Just a few quick comments after listening-

The playing is good.

Cymbals - thin sounding, not enough midrange tone
Snare - good volume in the mix, but the ringing is distracting.
Kick - also good volume, but there's a slap component that's weird, almost like an extra sheet of acetate on one of the heads. Perhaps tuning tighter will rectify this entirely.
Hi-hat - cuts through a little too much. I'm wondering if you cut down or eq your snare sm57 if this will help

Keep up the good work though,

JD