Brand new reel to reel decks ?

[cjacek]

Q: What's the future of analog hardware?
A: There's plenty of analog hardware being made and soon there will be brand new manufacturing of tape decks here in the USA. From US Recording's standpoint, we see analog recording as gaining strength in the last couple of years.

Source: http://www.usrecordingmedia.com/frasqu.html

[peritus]

Sweet...

[Vintage TX]

Cool, looking forward to that.

[jpmorris]

[QUOTE=cjacek]Q: What's the future of analog hardware?
A: There's plenty of analog hardware being made and soon there will be brand new manufacturing of tape decks here in the USA.[/url]

Who's making new machines? I was under the impression that Studer had stopped, Tascam certainly pulled the BR20 which was their last one, and Otari only do the MX5050 (if they haven't now pulled that too.. I hope not).

The only other manufacturer I know of is the Hungarian manufacturer, STM Studiotechnic.. and their site hasn't been updated for a long time. I hope they're still around.

[peritus]

Nagra anyone?

[Beck]

Originally Posted by jpmorris

Who's making new machines?

ATR (or at least remaking them)

http://www.atrservice.com/products/

[cjacek]

Well, either they're completely delusional or have mis-spoken or "soon there will be brand new manufacturing of tape decks here in the USA." That's a pretty strong and confident statement. I'll drop them a line and ask the obvious questions: Who ? What ? Where ? When ?

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by Beck

ATR (or at least remaking them)

http://www.atrservice.com/products/

Yes, but US Recording uses the words "brand new" which makes me think it's not restored recorders ... Do they know something we don't ?

[Beck]

Originally Posted by cjacek

Well, either they're completely delusional or have mis-spoken or "soon there will be brand new manufacturing of tape decks here in the USA." That's a pretty strong and confident statement. I'll drop them a line and ask the obvious questions: Who ? What ? Where ? When ?

In that case make sure it's not a typo, because I've seen them use the same phraseology when saying there will be "New tape made right here in the USA" or something to that effect.

My only problem with the idea right now is that when Israel makes a preemptive strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities gas will be too high for me to afford a new tape deck... or even tape.

[BRDTS]

Here's my take after sitting around, talking extensively with both Studer and Tascam at the Namm show over the past week....

Look at all this and get things into perspective from the manufacturing standpoint.

Studer still has 25 a824 24 tracks left from the run of 100 made two years ago. They are (and this is their exact words) having a real rough time GIVING them away at $17,000- 24,000 ..which is right about at their cost....their cost. From the factory in Switzerland. They said they did the 100 machine run because it was looking like there just might be a resurging demand. But there wasn't. And isn't.

My buddies at Tascam, basically shook their head about the Studer deal and said that they KNEW there is no market. Not in a mass-produced type of way. And as you may or may not know, a company like Tascam or Studer does not make a product at any price unless there is some sort of mass-production market to cater to. Thousands of machines per year.

Which ain't analog machines.

And folks, future markets are kids.
And kids..as a whole...do not know analog.
Kids know Ipods. And computer recording.

But kids do not care...as a whole..for supporting analog multitrack products.
YOU might. But how many of YOU (or us) are there?
Based on the Studer situation. Not many.
And if YOU (us) say..hey we'll buy new machines if you price them at Ebay prices, the answer is basically, ha-ha-ha-ha.

Build them and sell them at a loss? Ha-ha-ha.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
So..here's the big picture as I see it according to me...

Will there be multi-track analog machines made by someone..anyone?
Yep.

How many machines might a company make per year?
Maybe ten or so...enough to fill orders/back orders..and make a really nice profit.

Will these machines sell for $500..or a thousand...or ten thousand dollars?
Ha..ha..ha...ha. Get real! Way higher. And every single one will be sold.

When will we start seeing them?
My guess...about 2-3 years from now.

By the major "old" players (Tascam, Sony, Studer)?
Nope. No profit in making only 10...or 500 machines in a year.

----------------------------------------------------------
I've seen some stuff on the drawing board and the folks I've seen getting into this are in no rush because they're already swamped with their other 'vintage" businesses.

Here are a few things to get into perspective....especially if you're living in the Ebay "price" mentality.....

When these analog tape machines come out, they will be mostly hand made, boutique level, great sounding, constantly back ordered machines (just like we now have with the Manleys/Chandlers/Lawsons..and all other boutique hand wired/vintage oriented equipment...oh...and they will be extremely expensive.....gawdafull expensive....just like the old days when this stuff was NOT mass produced. Oh and did I mention they will be astronomically expensive?

And will each machine immediately be sold at the astronomical prices?
Yep.

Now...I can m-a-y-b-e see a long term trickle down effect where inexpensive multitracks might be released after the next big wave of new, expensive multitracks....but I see that market trickledown happening when my kids grow up...or their kids. If at all.

The circle is coming around. The analog fantasy is very real and very marketable. But in numbers that makes a Tascam or a Studer walk away.

The market exists and it is what it is. That's why analog preamps based on vintage designs are two-three-four thousand dollars each. Boutique, vintage stuff was all over the place at Namm. A little surprising to me because this is stuff I typically only used to see at AES.

As I say the circle is coming around. Analog multitrack machines will be back. 2"-24 track, 1" 2 track machines. And everything in between.

But you're not going to see anything at Ebay prices. Get realistic about that.

96 and 192k stuff in computers is sounding incredible to me nowadays. With and without vintage frontend preamps. After being in this biz for all these decades, I LOVE where we are with computer recording. On the other hand, I just may grab one of the Studers while I can. Because there's always a place in my heart for a good ol' analog tape recorder in the studio. Even though I already own a pile of Tascams too.

So..tape is back. And new analog machines will be back.

But they are going to be Mercedes machines. Not Kia.

Just prepare yourself.

[Dr ZEE]

Originally Posted by BRDTS

...But they are going to be Mercedes machines. Not Kia.
.

what'cha mean "are going to be"? They are. It's just nobody makes them, cos' Kias are more marketable and profitable.
In reality Things are done by individuals (just people) not by big corporations. You never know.
Here's interesting read about electro-harmonix boxes and tubes in general:
http://www.ehx.com/reviews/matthewsreprint3.pdf
http://www.ehx.com/reviews/MM-EH-MMR.pdf

[BRDTS]

......."Things are done by individuals (just people) not by big corporations..."

Actually, that's what I said. The next machines on the boards are being made by individuals and small boutique companies rather than the large companies that could mass produce. Direct sales, 5%-10% above manufacturing costs. Costs of which will be several magnitudes higher than the components in a fuzz box.

[cjacek]

Informative post BRDTS but I'm not suggesting machines at eBay prices and, call me naive but I'm sure 99% of people know that already. I also feel most don't have the need nor budget for 24 track machines like the Studer example. That machine was CERTAINLY not marketed to the home recordist. Any future company should know that its niche market is comparatively small but significant (and growing) and consists of the home recordist and would design a machine and prices accordingly. That's my 2 cents ... but all I know is that if someting comes along in the 4 - 8 track configuration, in standard track format, for around $3000 - 5000 bucks, I have the money tucked away for such an occassion. Hell, I've lost enough $$ on damaged and semi-functional and in need of service used gear over the last few years, that if I add it all up, I could have got me a brand spankin' new, fully warranted TASCAM 38, if these were still available. Plus such gear will be repairable in 20, 30, 40 years and will never need software updates and will never succumb to viruses, hard-disc crashes, configuration/driver issues etc.. Current and future digital technology doesn't interest me and ironically it's DIGITAL that is a dying format, cause what you buy today is already "old", depreciated significantly, and will be unsupported in a relative short period of time.

~Daniel

[esotericality]

I only use a computer to put music on a cd. f**k digital!!! I want to get into reel to reelrecording!!!! I have a decent cheap cassette tape deck, it is of course a vintage teac a-160, I paid $5 for it, sounds better than a $100 soundcard I have. The way I see it is digital has been around for about 25 years, analog has been around for about 120 years. Analog has had more time to achieve better quality!!

[cjacek]

Originally Posted by esotericality

I only use a computer to put music on a cd. f**k digital!!! I want to get into reel to reelrecording!!!! I have a decent cheap cassette tape deck, it is of course a vintage teac a-160, I paid $5 for it, sounds better than a $100 soundcard I have. The way I see it is digital has been around for about 25 years, analog has been around for about 120 years. Analog has had more time to achieve better quality!!

I'm sure high end digital sounds fine and dandy, perhaps too "clean" for my taste, but that alone is not a selling point for me. There's so much more I like about analog.

[esotericality]

yeah, i like the slight natural distortion and the warm feeling from analog. sorry, did I make this thread go off topic with my first post?

[Good Friend]

I cruise over to the atr website to see what everyone is talking about and to see what im missing and see how crappy i am compared to the other musicians and recordists in the world, and i see the clients section of the website and it makes me laugh. Because all those credentials those people have mean jack shit to me. I like analog reels and i hate how unblended digital recordings sound, but i REALLY hate old rich men with nothing better to do then argue and fight over who has the biggest best recorder. If recording Tools latest piece of shit album is something to be proud of then i am lost in this world. I guess its more important to have 6" tape heads that cost 20 thousand dollars then to lean over to the band and say "hey your songs fucking suck and youre basically only repeating yourself with diminishing quality year after year, album after album". Man i wonder what kind of world we would live in if old men spent as much time on creativity as they spend on buying bigger better things.

No one will ever make new and affordable reel to reels. They will be VERY expensive rich old man toys forever more.

Everyone is missing the point of everything.

[esotericality]

i see the digital market hyping it up, advertising it to be the greatest thing in the recording industry. I think that there is also missing the point.

[mixmkr]

I grew up learning on analog gear, but I love computer recording and won't look back.

The main thing is, I don't have the ears to hear the difference of a signal recorded into my computer, and the playback.

And furthermore, I am amazed at all the people with faaaaaar less recording time "under their belt" than I have, that hear all these fine "details." But, I don't claim to have the best analytical ear either. Although I place my ears ability highest on my food chain...above musicianship, writing, recording skills...etc.

Admittedly, there is nothing cooler looking (in a studio) than some 10.5" reels turning and some analog meters bouncing away. But I only hear the difference on a high end machine like a MCI, Studer, Ampex, etc... and NOT on the consumer stuff that hobbiests are grabbing up like hotcakes. Personally, I think there is a much bigger difference between a Studer and a 1/2" Tascam than people admit. Even though tape width may end up being the same, (1/2" 8 track -2" 24 track)the electronics are certainly not. And that said, from PERSONAL experience, I think a 24bit computer recording makes a (consumer)Tascam machine pale in comparision.

And honestly, I don't find the people raving about analog in the HOME RECORDING FORUMS, having the skills that it really makes that much difference anyway. They suffer from things like bad mic technique, poor musicianship, inadequate monitoring chains, lousy preamps, etc etc. These things are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more important in having these skills/equipment rather than what medium they are recording to.

[Good Friend]

My favorite recordings and songs ive heard that are new are always home recordings on Tascam/teac, otaris with "shit" mics sometimes with no preamps at all other than the mixing board ones. If this is possibl, then none of that other shit matters or counts. Im a little sick of hearing about studers and even about 24 tracks. If you are using 24 tracks to record a pop song you are a dumbfuck. Hows that world?

[Good Friend]

Let me guess that the ONLY WAY YOU CAN RECORD A DRUMSET AND HAVE IT MOVE PEOPLE is to put a 1000 dollar mic in every possible place around each drum, and have every mic running through some 3000 dollar Neve clone made by hand, and every mic into a seperate track of your 20000 dollar recorder. That even isnt enough. Now its time to pull out the boutique eq (the only "useable" eq that exists) and tweak endlessly. If that wasnt enough, lets get out the 660 tube limiter replicas that cost 10000 together and run it all through that. Because god knows that no one can hear an audible sound unless you do these things.

Next is guitar right? Well lets get a vintage ac30 and mic it in 6 ways then mic a twin reverb 6 ways and just for shits well mic a little crappy amp too and use a direct signal as well then combine them all for gods ultimate guitar sound even though the voice is what everyone hears when they hear a song.

Now were actually making music!!

[Good Friend]

You know what should be the first step in any recording project? Reading "The Emperor's New Clothes".

[Seeker of Rock]

Originally Posted by mixmkr

I grew up learning on analog gear, but I love computer recording and won't look back.

The main thing is, I don't have the ears to hear the difference of a signal recorded into my computer, and the playback.

And furthermore, I am amazed at all the people with faaaaaar less recording time "under their belt" than I have, that hear all these fine "details." But, I don't claim to have the best analytical ear either. Although I place my ears ability highest on my food chain...above musicianship, writing, recording skills...etc.

Admittedly, there is nothing cooler looking (in a studio) than some 10.5" reels turning and some analog meters bouncing away. But I only hear the difference on a high end machine like a MCI, Studer, Ampex, etc... and NOT on the consumer stuff that hobbiests are grabbing up like hotcakes. Personally, I think there is a much bigger difference between a Studer and a 1/2" Tascam than people admit. Even though tape width may end up being the same, (1/2" 8 track -2" 24 track)the electronics are certainly not. And that said, from PERSONAL experience, I think a 24bit computer recording makes a (consumer)Tascam machine pale in comparision.

And honestly, I don't find the people raving about analog in the HOME RECORDING FORUMS, having the skills that it really makes that much difference anyway. They suffer from things like bad mic technique, poor musicianship, inadequate monitoring chains, lousy preamps, etc etc. These things are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more important in having these skills/equipment rather than what medium they are recording to.

What are you from Kentucky or something? Ooops, never mind.

[Good Friend]

You fuckers have inspired me. I am going to get the cheapest crap i can. I am going to get a bunch of old teac consumer reels and run them at slowest speed and use only dynamic mics made in the 60s. I might even bounce a track or two who knows. And when im done and it sounds like ass at least it will be my own ass that i cooked up myself. For mic technique i am jsut going to point the mic at the instrument and call it done. For monitors im going to use just some old pro4aa type. No eq. No compression. Nothing lame no tricks. For reverb ill use some old crappy spring type. And hopefully itll only be like 4 tracks so ill have to bounce a few times. And when im done ill make mono 45s instead of cds. And people will say i suck but at least they wont say i sound like creed's new album. Or 311's new album. Teenagers wont like it. It will not "bump" your system. There will be noise and anomolies and clicks. Chicks wont see an exciting future in the music and it will not trigger their hormones so that i can get laid. There will be no t-shirts made. I will not live forever. But at least i wont be some 40 something fat old bald man trying to compensate for his lack of creativity with a bunch of shiny objects that only the other fat old men care to even know about.

The only question left is, who is with me?!?!?

[Dr ZEE]

Originally Posted by BRDTS

......."Things are done by individuals (just people) not by big corporations..."

Actually, that's what I said. The next machines on the boards are being made by individuals and small boutique companies rather than the large companies that could mass produce. Direct sales, 5%-10% above manufacturing costs. Costs of which will be several magnitudes higher than the components in a fuzz box.

Yeah. I see what you are saying. Not much disagreement here, really...
what I was trying to point out was, i guess..., in general:
"Things are done by individuals (just people) not by big corporations..., and! corporations are among those things... , so you never know.
EH "story" reference, as I thought, could be as sort of example (or illustration):
First you find place and way to make THIS,
then THIS , sell them good
then you'd be able to make and sell THIS
and then some day some corporation will be making and selling THIS ... heh heh , which is pretty close to the cost of the components in a box

/respects