time signatures... tempos... beats... HELP!

[pikingrin]

Alright, newbie question, but in my defense ( ) I'm not a drummer. I practice with a metronome, but I can't make the translation from a 4/4 beat, to a 6/8, etc... Does anyone know what kind of dilemma this is???? I really enjoy music that is all "off tempo", or different time signatures, etc... and I would like to try my hand at it, but it is awful confusing... any pointers, or quick courses in music theory would be appreciated!

[bennychico11]

depends on what you're wanting to play really. For example if you want the dotted quarter note to stay the same throughout. In other words, a dotted quarter note from the 4/4 bar is going to be the exact same length in the 6/8 bar...time wise. This is the most common way of doing a 6/8 time change. If this is what you're wanting, practice the 4/4 bar with:

dotted quarter...dotted quarter....quarter note

This will equal four bars. Get the feel of that. Get used to the off beat rhythm. Now 6/8 is just going to be the dotted quarter notes....leave off the last quarter note. That's 6/8.

Practice going:
dotted quarter....dotted quarter...quarter (4/4)
dotted quarter....dotted quarter...quarter (4/4)
dotted quarter....dotted quarter (6/8)
dotted quarter....dotted quarter...quarter (4/4)
dotted quarter....dotted quarter...quarter (4/4)
dotted quarter....dotted quarter (6/8)



If you can get that, you'll realize that the eighth notes in the 4/4 bar are ALSO constant in the 6/8. So the dotted quarter note in the 4/4 is equal to 3 eighth notes in the 4/4 AND in the 6/8.
And 3 eighth notes equals HALF of the 6/8 bar. A full 6/8 bar is going to be 6 eighth notes (hence the name 6/8). Realizing this helps me feel the 6/8 easier. So I can go....

quarter.........quarter.....|...quarter.........quarter
eighth eighth eighth |eighth eighth eighth
quarter.........quarter.....|...quarter.........quarter
eighth eighth eighth |eighth eighth eighth

(the | denotes the middle of the measure)
hopefully all that lined up right on this post. See how in the 4/4 bar we have an extra quarter note? Essentially, since we are taking out a quarter note we have a 3/4 bar! However, the emphasis in a 6/8 is on each dotted quarter note (or eighth note if you want to feel it that way), while the 3/4's emphasis is on the quarter notes.






OR (maybe this will make it easier now that i just rambled on and on about all that) you can think of the 6/8 in two...which is just counting the dotted quarter notes.

eighth eighth eighth | eighth eighth eighth
...dotted quarter.....|.....dotted quarter.....
...........1...............|.............2...............


Okay, I hope this helped a bit

[teddyastuffed]

also if you dont know this already, in a standard time signature, the first number is the number of beats in a measure, and the second number is which note takes the beat.

ex: in standard 4/4 time signature, the first number means there are 4 beats in the measure, and the second number means that a quaternote (4) takes (or defines) the beat. which therefore leads to a 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, etc.

ex 2: in 3/4 time signature, the first number means there are 3 beats in the measure, and the second number means that a quaternote (4) takes (or defines) the beat. which therefore leads to a 1 2 3, 1 2 3, 1 2 3, etc.

in that same example, if the time signature was 6/8 (which timing wise is the same thing. theyre kinda like ratios where 3/4's = .75 while 6/8 = .75 as well), the first number means there are 6 beats in the measure, and the second number means that a eighthnote (8) takes (or defines) the beat. which therefore leads to a 1 2 3 4 5 6, 1 2 3 4 5 6, 1 2 3 4 5 6, etc.


for your information, if u dont know this, study and memorize this:

1 = whole note
2 = half note
4 = quarter note
8 = eighth note
16 = sixteenth note
32 = thirtysecondth note
64 = sixtyfourth note

ex:
there are 2 half notes in a whole note
there are 2 quarter notes in a half note
there are 4 quarter notes in a whole note
there are 8 eight notes in a whole note
there are 4 sixteenth notes in quarter note
there are 32 thirtysecondth notes in 4 quarter notes


get it? hopefully this helps. ull get it more and more as u work with music more and more

[SKYflyer]

hehe i have the same problem, pikingrin. Like in Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick (part 1)", in the beginning, it switches between 3/4 and 6/8 and i can never tap along to the beat consistantly there =(. Hopefully i can practice this stuff though, and like you, i'm not a drummer.

[pikingrin]

Thanks for all the info, it's definitely helping my understanding, from a musical perspective. I think I started the thread off wrong though. What I'm interested in doing is programming drum beats (In BFD) in strange tempos, with weird changes, and building around the beat for once, instead of laying down the guitar, etc. first. My thoughts are to lay down the hi-hat clicks in a specific pattern, and then go back and fill in with the toms, bass, snare and all of that. That is where the timing is kind of confusing I suppose...

[drstawl]

Originally Posted by SKYflyer

hehe i have the same problem, pikingrin. Like in Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick (part 1)", in the beginning, it switches between 3/4 and 6/8 and i can never tap along to the beat consistantly there =(. Hopefully i can practice this stuff though, and like you, i'm not a drummer.

Don't forget that electric section in 5/4!

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by pikingrin

Thanks for all the info, it's definitely helping my understanding, from a musical perspective. I think I started the thread off wrong though. What I'm interested in doing is programming drum beats (In BFD) in strange tempos, with weird changes, and building around the beat for once, instead of laying down the guitar, etc. first. My thoughts are to lay down the hi-hat clicks in a specific pattern, and then go back and fill in with the toms, bass, snare and all of that. That is where the timing is kind of confusing I suppose...

while that route is good...it can sometimes make it harder to FEEL the rhythm if you have multitrack like that. Plus you're never actually reall learn it.
Sometimes it also can sound weird, almost as if you were never in the groove.

just set a metronome to quarter notes. There's your 4/4. Just sit there and *grunt* (yes I said grunt) the 4/4.
Now grunt the dotted quarter notes....for every two dotted quarter notes you have a 6/8 bar. And for every dotted quarter note, the emphasis in that bar is the 8th note.

[teddyastuffed]

bennychico11 is kinda correct in that assumption if u do a bad to ok job at programing the drums, it'll probably kill the 'feeling' of the song. but if u program the drums well with dynamics and buildups, then it'll be a lot of fun and emotional when u play the guitar, bass, vocals, etc. for general "guidelines" when setting up drums (since ur not a drummer), hi-hat will generally play the eighth notes where the kick and snare play the rest. of course this is VERY basic guidelines, but start from there and see where it takes u. for the hihat, trigger it so its 6 8th note hits, then throw in the kick and snare, and then go from there. let ur ears do the rest. u dont need to be a drummer to make a good drum track, its just a little easier for them -_-.

another thing to remember is accents. accents, just like in guitar and almost any other instrument, keep the rhythm and collection of sounds together. when ur counting ur time signature, accent the first note of each measure to start with, then try changing the accent around to see if u know what ur doing .

for example: ONE two three four, ONE two three four, ONE and two and three and four and, ONE and two and three and four and, one TWO three four, one TWO three four, one and TWO and three and four and, one and TWO and three and four and. (btw; 'and' is another way to present an eighth note in standard 4/4 timing)



PS: im not a nerd for timing, i just had a bass teacher that would make me clap out the timing of a song every time we met -_-. try that too ! it helps a lot

[pikingrin]

Thanks for all of your help guys! It has become clear to me that I need to upgrade my metronome... It seems that I might be able to get a more clear understanding if I had a digital metronome, where I might be able to hear and focus more on what kind of difference it makes to change signatures/tempos around, so it will give me an idea of how to get the drums programmed in. I've been using an old hand-me-down analog Wittner for a while now... Thanks again!