6-ply, 7-ply, ETC.

[cubanorocker316]

i was wondering if drums with more plies of wood would have less ring and a lower tone ?

if this is true, would someone recomend a set with more plies of wood than normal but in a decent price range thank you

[Kasey]

thats what ive been told.

[acollisionofcon]

their are many underlying factors that contribute to the tone and reasantion of a drum ie the type of wood used not just the (plies) if thats how u spell it ?

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by cubanorocker316

i was wondering if drums with more plies of wood would have less ring and a lower tone ?

if this is true, would someone recomend a set with more plies of wood than normal but in a decent price range thank you

The thinner a drum shell is, the more overtones and lower in pitch it is.
So, while a thick shell, will have less "ring" to it, it will also have a higher Timbre, or sound, to it


Tim

[Brad_C]

The plys don't have a huge effect. Its all based on the tuning but with more plys you get

1) cheaper drums

2) louder drums

as for overtones all drums have overtunes according to pitch its tuned to, all instruments are like that. I have played 10 ply drums that sound the same as 6 ply drums its just the volume.

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by Brad_C

The plys don't have a huge effect. Its all based on the tuning but with more plys you get

1) cheaper drums

2) louder drums

as for overtones all drums have overtunes according to pitch its tuned to, all instruments are like that. I have played 10 ply drums that sound the same as 6 ply drums its just the volume.

Not to be an asshole, but none of those points in this post are true.

The number of plies has nothing to do with Price, but it does have to do with the type of sound the drum produces.
A Thinner drum has a naturally lower resonant frequency than a drum with a thicker shell. It doesn't make one louder than the other, it just means that each tends to tune better at different frequencies.


A thicker shelled drum should cost MORE since more wood is used in it's production - and, they do as long as quality wood is used.

Sonor Drums Signature series of the late 70's and early 80's were almost 1/2" thick and they were the most expensive commercially available drums to date(excluding any custom drums).


A well-made drum with a thin shell will be just as loud as a well-made drum with a thick shell.




Tim

[Brad_C]

Originally Posted by Tim Brown

Not to be an asshole, but none of those points in this post are true.

The number of plies has nothing to do with Price, but it does have to do with the type of sound the drum produces.
A Thinner drum has a naturally lower resonant frequency than a drum with a thicker shell. It doesn't make one louder than the other, it just means that each tends to tune better at different frequencies.


A thicker shelled drum should cost MORE since more wood is used in it's production - and, they do as long as quality wood is used.

Sonor Drums Signature series of the late 70's and early 80's were almost 1/2" thick and they were the most expensive commercially available drums to date(excluding any custom drums).


A well-made drum with a thin shell will be just as loud as a well-made drum with a thick shell.




Tim

No it won't thicker drum shells are louder, I get this info from a guy named John Wyre, this is what he explained to me, look his name up. Also try playing a set of Tama Swing stars (thick shells) and comparing them with a set of say pearl SBX series or higher end tama big difference.

[PhilGood]

Sorry Brad, but your information is wrong. Thinner shells have a dramatically pronounced low fundamental and thicker shells are brigher sounding. There is not much difference in volume. Its a matter of perception. Higher and brighter tones tend to cut through more. Both drums will output the same decebel levels, but the lower tones of thinner shells get lost in the music and acoustics.

I have this information from the guys at DW, Pearl and some names much bigger than Mr Wyre. MUCH bigger.

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by Brad_C

No it won't thicker drum shells are louder, I get this info from a guy named John Wyre, this is what he explained to me, look his name up. Also try playing a set of Tama Swing stars (thick shells) and comparing them with a set of say pearl SBX series or higher end tama big difference.

Brad,

I've been repairing and building drums for almost 20 years.
The difference you are noting is not because of the shell thickness, the difference is because of the quality of the woods used.



Tim

[Brad_C]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Sorry Brad, but your information is wrong. Thinner shells have a dramatically pronounced low fundamental and thicker shells are brigher sounding. There is not much difference in volume. Its a matter of perception. Higher and brighter tones tend to cut through more. Both drums will output the same decebel levels, but the lower tones of thinner shells get lost in the music and acoustics.

I have this information from the guys at DW, Pearl and some names much bigger than Mr Wyre. MUCH bigger.

Not to argue but do you know who john wyre is?

http://www.pas.org/About/HofDetails.cfm?IFile=Nexus

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by Brad_C

Not to argue but do you know who john wyre is?

http://www.pas.org/About/HofDetails.cfm?IFile=Nexus

Big deal, he's in a PAS write up - I lived a few houses down from Artimus Pyle (the Drummer for Lynyrd Skynyrd) for years. I'm really good friends with the Pyle family - his son Chris is an incredible drummer....but that doesn't mean shit either.

If Mr. John Wyre said what you claim he said - he's sadly mistaken. A thicker shelled drum is not louder than a thin shelled drum. A thicker shell may be perceived as louder, since it has a higher fundamental pitch, but it is not actually louder.



Tim

[Brad_C]

Originally Posted by Tim Brown

Big deal, he's in a PAS write up - I lived a few houses down from Artimus Pyle (the Drummer for Lynyrd Skynyrd) for years. I'm really good friends with the Pyle family - his son Chris is an incredible drummer....but that doesn't mean shit either.

If Mr. John Wyre said what you claim he said - he's sadly mistaken. A thicker shelled drum is not louder than a thin shelled drum. A thicker shell may be perceived as louder, since it has a higher fundamental pitch, but it is not actually louder.



Tim

Umm yeah he isn't just in some write up he is in the hall of fame. He is one of the worlds most famour percussionist and most respected. The drummer for Lynrd Skynrd has nothing on this guy, but enough with argueing, I just don't give a fuck.

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by Brad_C

Umm yeah he isn't just in some write up he is in the hall of fame. He is one of the worlds most famour percussionist and most respected. The drummer for Lynrd Skynrd has nothing on this guy, but enough with argueing, I just don't give a fuck.

Therein lies the difference - you see, I DO "give a fuck" - when somebody comes around posting misinformation, I take it to heart. There's enough bad information going around out there, so those of us who are a little older and have been around the instrument for quite a while prefer to nip that bad information in the bud.



Tim

[Brad_C]

Originally Posted by Tim Brown

Therein lies the difference - you see, I DO "give a fuck" - when somebody comes around posting misinformation, I take it to heart. There's enough bad information going around out there, so those of us who are a little older and have been around the instrument for quite a while prefer to nip that bad information in the bud.



Tim

But yeah I am doing a music degree and age has nothing to do with knowing stuff. I bet you don't know how to properly tune or play timpani or know a million orchestral excerpts, but if older people are suppose to fix younger peoples information then John is way above 65, so yeah I think he is more experienced then you.

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by Brad_C

Not to argue but do you know who john wyre is?

http://www.pas.org/About/HofDetails.cfm?IFile=Nexus

Not to argue, but do you know who

Dave Weckl
Simon Phillips
Gregg Bisonette
Billy Cobham
Joe Porcaro

are?

[Brad_C]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Not to argue, but do you know who

Dave Weckl
Simon Phillips
Gregg Bisonette
Billy Cobham
Joe Porcaro

are?

Yes i do and I have met 2 out of 5 of those people. I just don't care anymore so yeah oh yes you guys are completely right blah blah all hail down to your greatness.

[acollisionofcon]

haha nice "bradC" to be honest why does some one care about equipment to much like we play drums yes we should kno some thing about the damn thing but unless we are going to build the fucking thing why do we need to kno everything about em jeez like when i buy drums i go on the sound i like , not the thickness of the fucking thing im not lets see aparently a 7ply shell should be louder or a diffrent pitch god damn ppl

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by Brad_C

But yeah I am doing a music degree and age has nothing to do with knowing stuff. I bet you don't know how to properly tune or play timpani or know a million orchestral excerpts, but if older people are suppose to fix younger peoples information then John is way above 65, so yeah I think he is more experienced then you.

Okay, you're working on a music degree - I applaud your effort. I turned down a scholarship to a major University to be a line drummer. Why? Because I was involved in a band that had label interest - I should have gone to college instead on the scholarship, but I chose to take a stab at being the next Tommy Lee - and it didn't happen.

I was a line drummer from the time I was 13 through 18, and I was the Tympanist in our School's Symphonic band. Unlike most rock drummers, I am trained. I also worked in a recording studio, owned a Live sound company, and I began repairing drums for drummers when I was just a little younger than you.

It is my musical training that has caused me to promote things like - lowering your kick's mallet, because the center of the kick is a dead spot. Unless all you want is a completely dead kick sound - you need to lower the mallet, because the drum is exactly like a Tympani. Your kick mallet really needs to play in the same playing zone that a tympani mallet would strike a Tympani - which would typically be between 2" and 6" from the bearing edge of the drum. (try it, it will change the sound of your kick immensely. )


But, let me ask a question or two of you:

For 60 years or so now, it has been "claimed"/"rumored" that Paiste cymbals are made by taking a very thin piece of wire, and "spinning" it into a circle, then they heat that disc of wire and it bonds together, becoming one solid piece of metal. (hence the term "Euro-spun" cymbals.)
The claim is that they attach it to a bolt in the middle of a big spinning disc, and then slowly feed it onto the turning disc. Then it's heated to a temperature that is just before the metal will turn liquid, and the metal rings of the spun wire bond to the rings next to them, forming a disc.
It's claimed that this is why the "Euro-spun" cymbals have those "rings" in them.


I have met many many professional drummer who believed this, even some metalworkers/machinists - also including an instructor at the college level - who was a drummer from the 1940's - who believed this little piece of information - and he taught it in class, and even worked out this diagram on a large artist's' portrait pad on an easel as to how it was done.

But, it's misinformation that he was passing on, while he thought it was knowledge.

Paiste cymbals are made by pouring th metal into thin sheets ,and then cutting the discs out of the sheets of metal. The "rings" he was talking about were the sound grooves cut into the cymbal with a hand-held metal lathe cutting tool (it looks kind of like a chisel.) It's actually one continuous groove cut into the cymbal. It's like the question we used to always ask about records- "How many grooves are there on a 7" single?" There's 1. It is one continuous groove cut in a single.


So again, I'll re-state, a thicker shell is not louder than a thinner shelled drum, it is just perceived that way. Here is why you are misunderstanding me, and where John Wyre is wrong.

The Human ear hears things better that have more midrange - that's why a telephone has a frequency range of 300hz to 3,000hz. It's within that range that human conversation takes place. Since the thicker shell has a higher natural pitch, the human ear perceives it as being "louder", yet if tested with a decibel meter using the same force to strike each drum - the thick shell is not louder than a thin shelled drum - it just SOUNDS like it is to the human ear because it's higher in pitch.


Also ask yourself this question, since you claim thin shells cost more than thick shells:

If thick shelled drums are so cheap? How come an Orange County 40-ply Snare costs so much more than a standard 6-ply?
Their 6-ply is $637 while the 40-ply is $1,139. The difference is the thickness of the drum.

Of course a thicker shelled drum costs more, there is more wood involved, and their is more labor involved in making the drum.

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by acollisionofcon

haha nice "bradC" to be honest why does some one care about equipment to much like we play drums yes we should kno some thing about the damn thing but unless we are going to build the fucking thing why do we need to kno everything about em jeez like when i buy drums i go on the sound i like , not the thickness of the fucking thing im not lets see aparently a 7ply shell should be louder or a diffrent pitch god damn ppl

Ahh, but here is what you're not getting - I DO build them, so I care.



Tim

[tilinmyowngrave]

Originally Posted by Tim Brown

Okay, you're working on a music degree - I applaud your effort. I turned down a scholarship to a major University to be a line drummer. Why? Because I was involved in a band that had label interest - I should have gone to college instead on the scholarship, but I chose to take a stab at being the next Tommy Lee - and it didn't happen.

I was a line drummer from the time I was 13 through 18, and I was the Tympanist in our School's Symphonic band. Unlike most rock drummers, I am trained. I also worked in a recording studio, owned a Live sound company, and I began repairing drums for drummers when I was just a little younger than you.

It is my musical training that has caused me to promote things like - lowering your kick's mallet, because the center of the kick is a dead spot. Unless all you want is a completely dead kick sound - you need to lower the mallet, because the drum is exactly like a Tympani. Your kick mallet really needs to play in the same playing zone that a tympani mallet would strike a Tympani - which would typically be between 2" and 6" from the bearing edge of the drum. (try it, it will change the sound of your kick immensely. )


But, let me ask a question or two of you:

For 60 years or so now, it has been "claimed"/"rumored" that Paiste cymbals are made by taking a very thin piece of wire, and "spinning" it into a circle, then they heat that disc of wire and it bonds together, becoming one solid piece of metal. (hence the term "Euro-spun" cymbals.)
The claim is that they attach it to a bolt in the middle of a big spinning disc, and then slowly feed it onto the turning disc. Then it's heated to a temperature that is just before the metal will turn liquid, and the metal rings of the spun wire bond to the rings next to them, forming a disc.
It's claimed that this is why the "Euro-spun" cymbals have those "rings" in them.


I have met many many professional drummer who believed this, even some metalworkers/machinists - also including an instructor at the college level - who was a drummer from the 1940's - who believed this little piece of information - and he taught it in class, and even worked out this diagram on a large artist's' portrait pad on an easel as to how it was done.

But, it's misinformation that he was passing on, while he thought it was knowledge.

Paiste cymbals are made by pouring th metal into thin sheets ,and then cutting the discs out of the sheets of metal. The "rings" he was talking about were the sound grooves cut into the cymbal with a hand-held metal lathe cutting tool (it looks kind of like a chisel.) It's actually one continuous groove cut into the cymbal. It's like the question we used to always ask about records- "How many grooves are there on a 7" single?" There's 1. It is one continuous groove cut in a single.


So again, I'll re-state, a thicker shell is not louder than a thinner shelled drum, it is just perceived that way. Here is why you are misunderstanding me, and where John Wyre is wrong.

The Human ear hears things better that have more midrange - that's why a telephone has a frequency range of 300hz to 3,000hz. It's within that range that human conversation takes place. Since the thicker shell has a higher natural pitch, the human ear perceives it as being "louder", yet if tested with a decibel meter using the same force to strike each drum - the thick shell is not louder than a thin shelled drum - it just SOUNDS like it is to the human ear because it's higher in pitch.


Also ask yourself this question, since you claim thin shells cost more than thick shells:

If thick shelled drums are so cheap? How come an Orange County 40-ply Snare costs so much more than a standard 6-ply?
Their 6-ply is $637 while the 40-ply is $1,139. The difference is the thickness of the drum.

Of course a thicker shelled drum costs more, there is more wood involved, and their is more labor involved in making the drum.

I'm definately gonna try the kick mallet thing, and you have eased my curiousity of why paiste cymbals look the way they do! Heres my question. From what I've heard (and I can't confirm this), bubinga and birch have boosted high end. Then why do I hear people say they sound better low? SHouldn't drums with mroe high end be tuned higher? Or are these people wrong? And does the thickness of a drum shellc hange its tuning range? For example, will a thin shell be able to eb tuned higher/ and or lower than a thicker shell?

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by tilinmyowngrave

I'm definitely gonna try the kick mallet thing, and you have eased my curiosity of why paiste cymbals look the way they do! Heres my question. From what I've heard (and I can't confirm this), bubinga and birch have boosted high end. Then why do I hear people say they sound better low? Shouldn't drums with more high end be tuned higher? Or are these people wrong? And does the thickness of a drum shell change its tuning range? For example, will a thin shell be able to be tuned higher/ and or lower than a thicker shell?

The problem is, the question your asking is partially "relative". What I mean by that is, some people like drums tuned low, some like drums tuned high.... after you get past the facts that thinner shell has a lower timbre than a thicker shell, it's all opinion really.

I mean - Danny Carey is using a metal kit with extremely thin shells, made up of small drums, and tuned low. Now, if he tuned that kit higher, it would be a LOT louder. Why? Because it would have a higher pitch, which is easier for the human ear to hear, and that's the point that BradC is missing, and it is why John Wyre's statement is wrong.

Otherwise - why would Drum Workshop make drums that were "quieter" than Pearl or Tama?

I mean, Pearl could come out with an advertisement that said:

Pearl Export

The Loudest Fucking Drums on the planet
because Our Shells are the thickest!"

And you'd hear things like "DW - quiet drums made just for pussies!"


The more plies that are applied/layered in a wooden shell will raise the natural fundamental tone/timbre of the drum.
Also, the length of the shell will play into this.

an 8-ply 8"x12" will not have the same timbre as a 12"x12" of the same number of plies.

More wood = higher pitch.

You can verify this with two pieces of plywood. a 1/4" plywood will have a lower pitch or tone than a 3/4" piece.

The thickness doesn't change the actual tuning range, but it dictates which part of the tuning range that particular shell sounds better tuned in. Does that make sense?


Let's say that a 14" diameter tom's optimum tuning range is between 5 and 10 (just using these numbers to give a low and high tuning range and nothing more - they don't relate to anything else in regard to this - I'm not talking about any kind of tuning device numbers.)

My opinion (and notice that it's my opinion, but it's based on years of experience) is that a thinner shelled drum would sit better in the 5-7 portion of the range, while a thicker shelled drum would sit better in the 8-10 portion of the range.

Understand what I'm saying?

So, I would agree that a drum with more plies and of a wood that has more grain density and a higher timbre should be tuned higher - but then again, I think all drums should be tuned a little higher.


The standard wood used for drum making is furniture grade Maple. It doesn't sound bad, but in all honesty it probably isn't the best wood for drums simply because it has such a pronounced midrange. Birch doesn't have "more high end", it has less midrange, which makes it so great for mic'ing; it's been called the "pre-equalized" wood, the lows and highs stand out better than the midrange does.

I don't have any experience with Bubinga except as an outer layer on a Sonor Snare that I had, and I would say that 1 ply played virtually no part in that drums sound....now, if it had been on the inside of the drum - then it would have made a difference.


As for dropping the mallet.

Drop the mallet 1" and see if the Kick drum doesn't sound a lot more musical.




Tim

[Drummyjoey]

Pardon my skimming, Tim...

Is it actually possible for you to drop the mallet enough to play within 2-6" of the bearing edge? My mallet for some reason I can barely get to go down a full inch. I mean, I'm really interested in trying it out, I'm about to go prop up my bass drum just to see (though I can't help but wonder if my patch in the middle of the bass drum will hamper the experiment), but how exactly are you doing this as a consistent thing?

Just curious...

Joe

[Drummyjoey]

Yeah, it DOES seem more musical...

If I can find a way to do this consistently I think it will be awesome.

With as hard as I play at times, I'm wondering if it will be harder on the head though, not being hit in the center...

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by Drummyjoey

Yeah, it DOES seem more musical...

If I can find a way to do this consistently I think it will be awesome.

With as hard as I play at times, I'm wondering if it will be harder on the head though, not being hit in the center...

The point is, if you just drop the mallet 1 inch, you get it closer to the area that has all of the tone in it.



Tim

[tilinmyowngrave]

wow... the mallet thing works . O well, my axis pedals are pissing me off. Yes, they are very responsive. But I still havent figured out how to adjust them, despite countless hours of trying, and on my second bass drum the thing fell apart... I wasnt even playign hard, i wa splayign softly and then the spring just came loose and it took forever to get it back, and now it squeaks... Im seriously cosnidering swapping these axis for a pair of DW 5000's. I know you use axis, tim, so do you know what I'm talking about, or am I the only person who ahs these problems?