whats the deal with "the marshall sound"

[vangore]

Iv always heard that for the best heavy distorted guitar sound marshalls and mesa boogies were the be all and end all but having recently had a JCM 2000 in my studio i was very dissapointed with its sound, i just couldnt get a really heavy good sounding guitar tone, I ran a line 6 distortion, a big muff and a line 6 pod through it an addition to trying it with nothing and i couldnt see what the fuss is about.

My question is how to get that funeral for a friend type sound out of that bloody marshall,i will be using a tele or a strat and dont mind getting pedals.

Disclaimer: Iam not claiming that Marshall amps are overrated or horrible sounding merely that i am inexperienced and possibly looking for something i cant get with out much processing.

cheers all.

[Zed10R]

There are MANY people who agree that Marshall and Mesa just do not live up to their over-hyped reputation. Mesa IS better than Marshall for metal IMO, but not much. There are many better sounding guitar amps out there for a good, mean metal sound.

PV 5150
H&K MKII
Krank
Randall
Soldano
VHT

There are many choices. Don't buy into the Marshall hype.

[vangore]

Ya but the problem is the guitarist in my band already bought the Marshall so i have to make do with that, cheers Zed10R

[IronFlippy]

Are your using humbucker-equipped guitars? A single coil through any amp isn't going to sound heavy in that sense. You mentioned teles and strats, but neither typically have humbuckers.

EDIT: Marshalls have an aggressive sound, not necessarily a heavy sound. They sound best with some boosted mids. Also, Marshalls are usually paired with a Les Paul, which has a much different sound than Fenders.

[pikingrin]

as gay as it sounds, try to get a DOD grunge pedal. I used to use one through a marshall DSL, with a stock mexican made fender strat, and it had it's moments compared to the other pedals I tried. (Boss Metal Zone, Big Muff, Tube Screamer, DOD death metal, etc...) The grunge pedals are cheap too. I think they are around 40 bucks or so.

[edgarallanpoe]

The mistake that a lot of people make with Marshalls is trying to use too much pre amp gain. The Pods and other pedals simply wont get you there. The secret to a Marshall is when it is cranked. What you hear on recordings...from Hendrix to Zakk Wylde...is not pre amp distortion, it comes from the power amp section. Also...the stock tubes in these are useless. Get some good glass and stand back. Unfortunately, this will set you back quite a bit more than a DOD pedal, but the enhanced tone will be well worth it. The mother of all EL34s is the Mullard. Forget the GT Mullard, it ain't the same, I have both so you can trust me on this. Unfortunately they will set you back about $400 for a NOS matching quad. A good alternative are the Seimens EL34s. Very well made with excellent harmonic detail, the Seimens offer terriffic bang for the buck. The heaviest of the heavies is Sabbath, and that sound was made by tuning down and cranking his Laneys.

I can get all kinda crazy silly heavy sounds from a 1970 Marshall Super Lead 100 loaded with NOS Mullards and I can guarantee you that I probably use about 1/2 of the pre-amp gain that you do. I rarely use that amp anymore...its just too damn loud. Nowadays I use a custom made 40 watt amp and crank the living shit outta it! LOL

One more thing...don't forget technique. If you don't have it, you will just be chocolate coating a turd.

Good luck with your tone search bro, and don't dismiss what I say. Turn the gain down a tad and cranck the power section. It will sound *very* different at first, but try to get used to it, the tone and feel is far superior to all of that fizzy pre amp gain with absolutely no ass end. The ass end comes from the big glass...not the little glass.

[cactuseskimo]

I don't think spendinh $400.00 on a set of Mullards is good advice to someone who isn't happy with the tone they have already. Better tubes will take a good sounding amp, and make it that much better. It won't however usually make the difference betweeb liking or disliking the amp.

I have a few suggestions for the poster:

1) What do you mean by Heavey Tone - like a scooped mids Metallica sound? Basically the way to get a Heavy sound is to turn the mid control way down and turn up the treble and bass. (Note: this will sound good in the bedroom, but once you get playing with the band, you will need your mids in there to be heard)

2) What kind of amp are you coming from?? Solid State amps have a much higher degree of saturation and general fizziness which you can mistake for heaviness. Tube amps have a lot clearer sound that may not sound that heavy in your bedroom, but once you get in a full band situation, it cuts through perfectly sounding very heavey while the former SS amp would sound washed out.

3) If you're used to playing SS amps, it can take awhile to learn how to "push around" a tube amp. Your pick attack will naturally adjust for this the longer you play.

4) A good uncolored booster/OD might not be out of the question. Zakk Wylde uses one in front of his Marshall. He even has his own model made by MXR. The digitech bad monkey is a good sounding cheap od/booster pedal that will just give you the same sound as you original tone, but with more gain.

Anyway, to sum up: Let your pick attack adjust, wait until you get it in a full band playing before you judge the heaviness, and maybe try a booster.

[cactuseskimo]

Oh yeah, use humbuckers too!! As someone else suggested.

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by vangore

Iv always heard that for the best heavy distorted guitar sound marshalls and mesa boogies were the be all and end all but having recently had a JCM 2000 in my studio i was very dissapointed with its sound, i just couldnt get a really heavy good sounding guitar tone, I ran a line 6 distortion, a big muff and a line 6 pod through it an addition to trying it with nothing and i couldnt see what the fuss is about.

My question is how to get that funeral for a friend type sound out of that bloody marshall,i will be using a tele or a strat and dont mind getting pedals.

Disclaimer: Iam not claiming that Marshall amps are overrated or horrible sounding merely that i am inexperienced and possibly looking for something i cant get with out much processing.

cheers all.

I haven't heard that band, but I would be willing to bet that with that type of name, they don't play strats or teles.

But to the point...the 'metal' sound that Marshall became famous for back in the 70's and 80's....wasn't death metal. It was the 80's Twisted Sister and Motely Crue and Guns N Roses and every 70's band you could name. All those the death metal bands from the 80's and 90's were shitty distortion pedals through shitty amps. And all the bands now adays are Mesa Triple Recs. Mesa and Marshall are not interchangable. Its apples and oranges. Both fruit, but no where near the same.

-and get a metal guitar!

[Gorty]

I agree that the Humbucker will go a long way in helping you get that "Funeral for a Friend" tone. I have a Laney AOR Series 100watt head and quad and the difference in sound between using a Fender with Lace Sensor Pickups and an Ibanez with a DiMarzio Humbucker (Tone Zone) is like chalk and cheese!

Just my 2c worth!

Marshalls are good...........Laney's are KILLER!!!

[TheRockDoc]

Originally Posted by IronFlippy

Are your using humbucker-equipped guitars? A single coil through any amp isn't going to sound heavy in that sense.

I would respectfully disagree...and cite Gary Moore as a reference.

No question, though, that humfuckers would give you a thicker sound, but singles will give you the bite. Problem is, it is a bit dated.

Given what you've got, and what you're looking for, I'd consider another amp head as a preamp, but not pedals- they will thin your sound out and give you the Ron Jeremy effect.

If another head is not an option to run inline, consider a preamp to boost your gain, an EQ in line (rack or floor) to notch out some noise and a noise gate (I use a Rocktron Hush IIc, but a floor pedal will probably do the trick for you).

I also used two Laney AOR 100's 'back in the day' and a hot rodded Fernandes Revival strat w/Duncan's and a BC Rich Strat w/humbuckers, and never had a problem with the sound- but again, the distortion requirements for 1988 are different that 2006

[goldtopchas]

Humbuckers are definitlely the way to go. You can try one of the "stacked" humbuckers that will fit in a strat or tele' but it's just not the same as a guitar that was designed for it. Do you know someone with a good Humbucker equipped guitar? Maybe give that a shot.

As far as the whole Marshall sound thing goes... I was never impressed with the tone of the jcm2000 model. I had the opportunity to play thru one at a jam night that I go to. I had to do a lot of twiddling to get anything usable out of it. I have a 76' 50 watt "jmp" master volume that just kicks the crap out of the thin buzz that I heard with the jcm2000. I don't think good tubes would have even helped. I could be wrong though. Not every amp that says Marshall, Mesa or whatever is gonna be great. A guy comes to the same jam night I mentioned with a PRS and an expensive Bogner....It sounds like a squire through a cheap crate ss.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by TheRockDoc

...and give you the Ron Jeremy effect.

What is the "Ron Jeremy Effect"?

...A big wiener?








But seriously, what are you talking about?

-mr moon

[metalj]

Originally Posted by vangore

Iv always heard that for the best heavy distorted guitar sound marshalls and mesa boogies were the be all and end all but having recently had a JCM 2000 in my studio i was very dissapointed with its sound, .

When you say your disapointed with the sound do you mean just coming out of your 1/2 stack or do you mean actually the finished recorded sound??

correct me if im wrong here but marshalls generally can sound brittle and high end crispy just standing in front of your speaker cab, but thats the beauty of them for the people that use them. In a live situation they cut through the mix on stage and put the guitar in the mix right where you want it. Put a mic on the cab and then judge the tonal quality of them while hearing it through the front of house PA speakers that the audience hears with the whole band playing. thats where they earn their keep maybe ??? Same with recording situation, they sound great in the mix and give you a good starting point to add or cut what you need to make the total mix sound better. They make it easier for each instrument and vocals to stand out on their own especially bass guitar, they compliment a deep bass guitar well, all the while you can still distiguish the bass guitar from the reg guitar. Both together giving you that heavy sound your looking for.

Ive seen and heard too many line6's and distortion pedals ruining a mix because all you hear is low end.

I guess All im saying is decide whay it is your trying to achieve. Is it a deep metal sound right out ouf your rig(sound source) or are you looking for that sound in a mix with your whole band. I think the two may be totaly seperate.

let me know if im way off bass.........just kidding, BASE

yep.

[Outlaws]

Originally Posted by metalj

When you say your disapointed with the sound do you mean just coming out of your 1/2 stack or do you mean actually the finished recorded sound??

...and to further that...

Is the Marshall cranked? or it is somewhat low on the volume knob?

[TheRockDoc]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

What is the "Ron Jeremy Effect"?

...A big wiener?





But seriously, what are you talking about?

-mr moon

Why would you expect me to know what I'm talking about?

Ron Jeremy- the king of the long thin weiner. That's what pedals will do to a Marshall- turn it from Johnny Wad to Ron Jeremy. the guy wants a big fat one, but a $50 distortion pedal will kill the tone and thin it out

It was a bad one, but I was in that kinda goofy mood- know wha'am sayin? Don't hold me to that one..

[hiwatt357]

Originally Posted by vangore

Iv always heard that for the best heavy distorted guitar sound marshalls and mesa boogies were the be all and end all but having recently had a JCM 2000 in my studio i was very dissapointed with its sound, i just couldnt get a really heavy good sounding guitar tone, I ran a line 6 distortion, a big muff and a line 6 pod through it an addition to trying it with nothing and i couldnt see what the fuss is about.

My question is how to get that funeral for a friend type sound out of that bloody marshall,i will be using a tele or a strat and dont mind getting pedals.

Disclaimer: Iam not claiming that Marshall amps are overrated or horrible sounding merely that i am inexperienced and possibly looking for something i cant get with out much processing.

cheers all.

I'm with the folks on here who have mentioned using a guitar with humbuckers. Any picture I've seen of FFAF shows guitars with humbuckers. You're just not going to get the same tone out of a Strat or a Tele. You can get good tones using a Strat or a Tele through a Marshall, but more than likely not the tone you're going for.

I'll also back up edgarallanpoe in his mentioning that a lot of the tone comes from cranking the amp and getting the power tubes working.

If your guitar player already owns the Marshall, then see if he can borrow an SG or a Les Paul or something for tracking. I'm sure you'd hear a huge difference.

[Farview]

Get a Seymore Duncan Hot Rails pickup. It will fix your problem.

Is there a band called funeral for a friend, or are you talking about the Elton John song from the 70's? The Elton song was a Les Paul through a Marshall. The most you will get from a Mashall and a stock strat will be a Richie Blackmore/ Hendrix kind of thing.

[amra]

Humbucker! Humbucker Humbucker!
There is a reason why 99% of the guitarists out there with the heaviest distorted tones used humbuckers.

[6gun]

Originally Posted by vangore

Iv always heard that for the best heavy distorted guitar sound marshalls and mesa boogies

For heavy, Mesas. But Marshalls????? ummm....I'm not so sure.

There's a cutting midrange tone to Marshalls that you either really like or can't work with. Now, I speak of the 800, of which I own and still record with. I set the preamp distortion as low as I can get away with and crank the master as high as I can get it without rattling the neighborhood. Of course, at least one 4x12 is hooked up also. Ah, never fails.

[edgarallanpoe]

I don't think spendinh $400.00 on a set of Mullards is good advice to someone who isn't happy with the tone they have already. Better tubes will take a good sounding amp, and make it that much better. It won't however usually make the difference betweeb liking or disliking the amp.

I didn't say that, in fact I said the opposite.

I recommended getting good power tubes and cranking the amp. The Seimens will set you back about $100 a quad and will be well worth it. Especially when you consider those cheap Chinese EL34s that are currently in the amp.

Better tubes make a *huge* difference in tone. The Seimens will have better defined low end better midrange and a less brittle/harsh top end.

[vangore]

Originally Posted by cactuseskimo

I don't think spendinh $400.00 on a set of Mullards is good advice to someone who isn't happy with the tone they have already. Better tubes will take a good sounding amp, and make it that much better. It won't however usually make the difference betweeb liking or disliking the amp.

I have a few suggestions for the poster:

1) What do you mean by Heavey Tone - like a scooped mids Metallica sound? Basically the way to get a Heavy sound is to turn the mid control way down and turn up the treble and bass. (Note: this will sound good in the bedroom, but once you get playing with the band, you will need your mids in there to be heard)

2) What kind of amp are you coming from?? Solid State amps have a much higher degree of saturation and general fizziness which you can mistake for heaviness. Tube amps have a lot clearer sound that may not sound that heavy in your bedroom, but once you get in a full band situation, it cuts through perfectly sounding very heavey while the former SS amp would sound washed out.

3) If you're used to playing SS amps, it can take awhile to learn how to "push around" a tube amp. Your pick attack will naturally adjust for this the longer you play.

4) A good uncolored booster/OD might not be out of the question. Zakk Wylde uses one in front of his Marshall. He even has his own model made by MXR. The digitech bad monkey is a good sounding cheap od/booster pedal that will just give you the same sound as you original tone, but with more gain.

Anyway, to sum up: Let your pick attack adjust, wait until you get it in a full band playing before you judge the heaviness, and maybe try a booster.

Thanks for all the replies, we have tried it with a tele that has humbuckers, its sum new fangled contored bodt thing that doesnt look much like a tele at all. also just to clarify its my guitarists amp and we use it during practice all the time, the amp is a tsl jcm 2000 thing, im a drummer who pretends to be a guitarist sometimes and i do the studio thing so im not the most experienced with guitar amps.

Im looking for a balance but not too bassy tight distortion, gay as it may sound im want something like the spineshank sound (without all the gayness that comes with sounding anything like them)

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by TheRockDoc

Why would you expect me to know what I'm talking about?

Ron Jeremy- the king of the long thin weiner. That's what pedals will do to a Marshall- turn it from Johnny Wad to Ron Jeremy. the guy wants a big fat one, but a $50 distortion pedal will kill the tone and thin it out

It was a bad one, but I was in that kinda goofy mood- know wha'am sayin? Don't hold me to that one..

Oh, ok. That makes sense. I've never really checked out RJ's wiener, but I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm scouting around for some old-skool pr0n.



-mr moon

[nbffan]

Van, I too had the same problem when my got my JCM. I quickly learned the pickups in my guitar were one of the major souces of the problem. I upgraded to EMG pickups. That helped, but I was still looking for that deep-hard sound. So, I tried just about every pedal in the book and finally settled on the Digitech Metal Masters and I've been happy ever since.

You may want to test out a Genisis 3 guitar processor. It's got some pretty cool distortion sounds to choose from and there's a vast library of patchs to choose from.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by vangore

Iv always heard that for the best heavy distorted guitar sound marshalls and mesa boogies were the be all and end all but having recently had a JCM 2000 in my studio i was very dissapointed with its sound, i just couldnt get a really heavy good sounding guitar tone, I ran a line 6 distortion, a big muff and a line 6 pod through it an addition to trying it with nothing and i couldnt see what the fuss is about.

My question is how to get that funeral for a friend type sound out of that bloody marshall,i will be using a tele or a strat and dont mind getting pedals.

Disclaimer: Iam not claiming that Marshall amps are overrated or horrible sounding merely that i am inexperienced and possibly looking for something i cant get with out much processing.

cheers all.

What kind of cab are you going through? I'd suggest trying out a Mesa Recto 4x12 like I do, it really helps bring out the low-end roar out of my Marshall DSL100!!

However, for recording, I use an old 4x10 Marshall and turn the gain *way down*, as it translates as a heavier sound when recording that way than it does if you have too much gain.

-mr moon