EQ Rules of Thumb

[doncol07]

Hey everybody,

I just joined the site today and look forward to getting some good information here. I'm not very experienced with recording, and the little I do know has been trial and error since I'm not often around many other recording musicians. I'm running Sonar 4 and Sound Forge 7 on XP with the following: Tascam DM-24 to/from E-mu 1202 Sound Card via ADAT Optical Light Pipe in and out, Shure KSM 32 mic, Tannoy Protocol J w/Alesis RA-100, Kurzweil K-2000 (2) and K-2500 (1), plus other various and sundry stuff about a mile long.

My mixes tend to sound flat and a bit dull relative to commercial mixes. The bass is not as punchy and fat and the highs are a bit dull on my mixes. I've always been hesistant to boost any EQ settings, but I typically have to boost by about 4-6 dB around 80 Hz and 4-6 dB around 11-12 Khz to get my mixes more comparable to commercial mixes. Is that a reasonable adjustment to make? Again, since I've only been doing this by myself, I don't have a great frame of reference as far as what other people do. For example, is a 6 dB boost at 80 Hz alot, generally speaking? The material I work on most would be for modern dance music or what you would hear on many top 40 or country radio stations.

Thanks!

Donny O. Collins

[noisewreck]

I am not the best for giving advice, as I'm myself still in the learning process. However, if there is any rule of thumb with EQ is this: only use it if needed. Same goes for any other processing.

However, if you find that you need to boost that much, then I'd say the sounds that you're starting with are not up to par to begin with. With dance music what sits around 60-80 Hz varies with genre. With trance and house it will mainly be the kick. With DnB it will be mainly the subbass. So, for that range, what you should pay attention is the frequencies that various instruments/sounds occupy and make sure that they're not fighting with each other. If you have both a bass and a kick trying to fit around 70-80Hz, then your bass will lose definition. They might sound good by themselves, but in the mix they will be fighting with each other. Furthermore, this frequency range in particular is suspect to phasing issues between differnt sounds. So say if you have a kick and a bass hitting the same frequency, and if they're slightly out of phase with each other they will be interfering with each other, the result being a weak, out of focus bass. So, the point I'm trying to make here is make sure that each instrument has it's own dedicated frequency range. This starts at the sound design stage then the arrangement stage, ending with mixing. During mixing, it's better to cut than boost, specially when using plugins. Another thing, again with dance music, cut the low frequencies out of every sound that doesn't need it: leads, pads, FX, whatever. Put a low-cut filter (hi-pass) and sweep it up until it affects the main part of the sound, and cut it back a bit. I've found that a lot of sounds can be cut anywhere from 140-800Hz w/o affecting their "main" sound, i.e. the part of the sound that's important in the mix. This will cut a lot of the mud out, and more importantly let the bass sounds breath, not to mention give you more headroom to work with.

The second thing would be to use compression on bass and kick to make them more puncy. What settings and what compressor would work best would depend on what the sound needs, so can't and won't give you any settings as they'd be meaningless.

Once you have the bass tamed, you'll notice that the higher frequencies are also working much better. Here again, you'll need to work on the individual sounds, rather than the final mix.

I have a K2600, and I'd say that for the brigher sounds the K2500 might be a better choice than the K2000 as the K2000 seems to have a slightly darker sound compared to the later models, due to its converters. One other thing, the aliasing on the K2xxx series can cause buildup in the ultra low frequency ranges, this is specially the case when using the DSP oscillators and things like SHAPER. You might not hear it, but it will cause issues. So I have made a habit of frequency analyzing many of the higher range sounds to see if there are any low freq issues (a lot of it maybe below 20-25Hz, so it's hard to hear them, but they'll mess with your mix and eat up headroom).

[doncol07]

Hey,

Thanks for the reply! I certainly appreciate it. I do tend to pick sounds that I like on their own and throw them all together without considering how they blend together frequency-wise, so I definitely think you're on to something with my mixes as far as by kick and bass line competing for frequency space, but I'm confused regarding fixing that. I understand each needing their own frequency space, but:

1. How wide should the range be for kick and bass, respectively and how much should they overlap?
2. With the bass line, as the notes change, does the frequency change, or is there a difference between pitch frequency and EQ frequency?
3. Would spectrum or real time analysis help me see the prodominant frequency of each part and assist in making sure they don't compete?
4. Are there any other techniques I can use to check for and fix competing bass components?

Thanks!

Donny

[Ford Van]

I would say that if you were having to cut/boost more than 12dB, THEN you didn't do a great job of getting the right sound tracking.

Do what you NEED to do to get stuff sounding the way you want it to sound in your production. A lot of people here talk about "track it the way you want it to sound", and that is all fine and good, but I guarantee you that if everybody here was doing that, they either have a gear list that would be the envy of most regional studios, or have some crappy sounding audio!

You WILL be using EQ. Anybody that has done this for a while knows for a fact that you will use eq, compression, etc...to get the sounds to blend together right. I have NEVER worked on a production where I didn't have to eq! NEVER. Anybody that says they don't use eq extensively either is NOT achieving the best they can with their audio, or is flat out lying!

EQ away bub. If you have to boost 12KHz 6dB on something to give it a bit of sheen, by all means, boost it!

[LeeRosario]

well the concept is pretty easy to understand. It takes a little practice and experience to do.


The main goal is to capture it the best sound from the source. So you can already anticipate how much EQ and where it's needed by looking at your source, your room and your mics.

Some mics are general purpose stuff, some have EQ tailored for specific tasks. So perhaps checking out your EQ response diagrams can help you anticipate EQ adjustments better. Little adjustments are usually all it takes to get things just right.

Also, good use of dynamic processing can help pull your mixes out of dull mode and put some syncronized punch back into your mix.

[Ford Van]

There are great sounds you hear on records that you will NEVER be able to get unless you EQ the fuck out of the source! Really.

My point is that while I agree that you should strive to get as close as you can, you can't always get what you want with JUST mic selection/placement. Saying that you should forego eq on something for altruistic reasons ( ) is taking away a POWERFUL creative tool in sound!

In addition, most people around here just don't have the kind of money to invest in a variety of gear to achieve EVERY sound they could ever want. That is why mega-buck studios can still survive, because they have or have access to just about ANYTHING you would need to achieve any sound you want!

So, until a guy can afford ANYTHING to get ANY sound they want, you use stuff like EQ.

So friend, EQ away as you will! It is JUST music! Have fun with it!

[matt rascal]

When my kick and bass are fighting over the same frequencies, I usually start by cutting 350-400 Hz on the kick and adding it to the bass. This gives the bass presence and can remove the cardboard sound of the kick. This is just a jumping off point and it can vary.

Good luck sir!

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Ford Van

There are great sounds you hear on records that you will NEVER be able to get unless you EQ the fuck out of the source!

The LAST way anyone is going to get a commercial sound is by applying heavy EQ from project studio gear to a project studio recording.

Donny, a 6dB boost or cut in order to get something to sound right, while frankly sometimes necessary in the home rec world, is far from desireable. If there is that much of a bump or notch in your recording, better to try something like what Matt reccomends, boost a little on one track and cut a little on others. And then remember the next time you record to try and get the problem freq(s) ironed out in tracking via mic technique, room usage, etc. rather than having to try to "fix in the mix" with heavy post-processing.

As far as the bass vs. kick game, Again Matt is right about using counterbalance EQ as one trick to attack it. 400Hz is a common "signpost" frequency, but sweep around a bit and see what works best for each instrument as the frequencies can vary depending upon instrument, tuning, etc.

Another trick to getting bass and kick to sit pretty is to seperate them slightly in space and time. It's common to throw then both right down the center of the sound field. Nudge one of the slightly left, only 5-7 degrees or so, and the other one slighty right by a similar amount. You probably won't even hear the movement - they'll both still sound basically centered - but there can be enough movement to help "lift and seperate". Then, when you have them slightly seperated, lag one of the tracks just a few milliseconds behind the other to give them an equally slight seperation in time.

The combo of slight spacial seperation with slight temporal seperation can have a huge effect. Add the counterbalancing boost/cut EQ and you should be just like downtown. An added benefit is the slight lag between the bass and kick can have a similar effect as the bass player playing ahead or behind the beat instead of on top of it; it can add some good voodoo to the sound.

G.

[Raw-Tracks]

Rather than applyting EQ to the overall mix to get it right, concentrate on finding the individual tracks that may need EQ'ing. Your final result will sound much better applying the needed EQ to those tracks as opposed to EQ'ing the entire mix.

[Ford Van]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

The LAST way anyone is going to get a commercial sound is by applying heavy EQ from project studio gear to a project studio recording.

LOL...Okay sparky.

So tell me Mr.Glen, would you say that a HPF or a LPF is "heavy" EQ?



Spare me. I stand VERY much behind my statements. Maybe read VERY closely what I have said. I can start showing you how I mangle audio with plugin's and post before/after of the audio if you want to see how silly your statement is.

[2lim]

Hey Ed. I was just searching through the forums, and I can't find the old post you made along the lines of "A basic guide to mixing" I remember it had a bunch of tips tricks, and general guidelines for EQ and such. I was wondering if you could email it to me, assuming you still have it somewhere?(I dont wanna put ya through any trouble, so if you dont have it dont worry)

limade24@hotmail.com

Thanks!


Simon

[Ford Van]

I don't have them. Dragon seen fit to erase everything I ever posted as sonusman. LOL

And yes, you WILL find a "generalization" comment I made that was to the effect, "if you have to apply more than 6dB of eq, you should probably record the part again"....

In "context" to what I was talking about, that was to apply to stuff like Mackie mixing boards. But, even then, I have mixed stuff on Mackies and used HUGE amounts of eq and got pretty good results.

Anyway. That comment I made long ago is admittedly WAY too much of a generalization.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Ford Van

So tell me Mr.Glen, would you say that a HPF or a LPF is "heavy" EQ?

Who said anything about bandpassing? You gave the awful - and may I add *purposely* misleading - advice to "EQ the fuck out of your source." That is perhaps one of the most idiotic things you have said on this forum under any of your many guises. Nor does bandpass filtering relate in any but the most incremental of ways to Donny's two posted problems about his mixes sounding flat and dull compared to commercial mixes and his further problem seperating bass and kick in the mix.

If you spent half the time actually getting laid as you spent messing up this board perpetuating your Sonuscrap persona, you and this world would both be much improved. Even Andy Kaufman would be ashamed of you.

G.

[pipelineaudio]

BAH HUMBUG

you sissy ass wenchy poos

If you are "documenting " a band, then sure, by all means go with your purist stuff, and hey EVERYONE BETTER KNOW HOW TO DO IT!

Like they say know the rules before you break em

But remember this

Choosing a mic, is an EQ

Putting a mic 3" away instead of 1" away IS an EQ

putting a mic 1" away instead of three inches away IS AN EQ

Your room IS AN EQ

The singers turtleneck sweatshirt IS AN EQ

so dont get carried away

There are MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY

Times when a +20 dB boost on an EQ is EXACTLY what you need for the artistic trick you are trying to pull off

limiting yourself is BS, and modern mixes are so COMPLETELY removed from reality, that a little cut or boost on an EQ is NOTHING!

get serious now, use your tools

[Ford Van]

LOL....

Okay sparky.

I will continue to EQ the fuck out of my sources and create good mixes. You can continue with the rubbish advice of never applying more than what? 2 or 3dB of cut boost? LOL

The audio world wouldn't have improved much with advice like yours! In fact, if we didn't NEED more than a few dB's cut/boost, eq's wouldn't HAVE more than that available!

No need to act all sore that your rubbish advice doesn't hold any water and was pointed out.

I can tell you that many times, a kick drum is going to need HUGE eq curves to fit in a mix. Also, a bass guitar can be drastically improved with wicked amounts of eq. Combined with compression, huge eq cut/boost can totally reshape sounds and create a sound you will never get unless you DO that!

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Sonuschild

The audio world wouldn't have improved much with advice like yours! In fact, if we didn't NEED more than a few dB's cut/boost, eq's would HAVE more than that available!

Automobile speedometers also go up to 140MPH. So what? That's a meaningless point.

Originally Posted by Sonuschild

No need to act all sore that your rubbish advice doesn't hold any water and was pointed out.

The only thing that gets me sore is when adolescents come on boards like this and purposely decrease the signal to noise ratio of the information just to get silly giggles like Internet versions of Beavis and Butthead. Donny asked some honest and serious questions here, and sending down the road of crappy, amateur-sounding mixes by telling him that EQing the fuck out of his recordings in the mix is going to serve him well is just plain vandalistic.

Originally Posted by Sonuschild

I can tell you that many times, a kick drum is going to need HUGE eq curves to fit in a mix.

True...if you cant track your way out of a paper bag. I've been recording and mixing kick drums for longer than most people on this board have been alive, and I can tell you that a properly tracked kick (or any other instrument, FTM) not only doesn't need "HUGE" EQ curves, but will suffer from them. If you've gotta twist your knobs to 11 to get your kicks to sound good, it's because you never bothered to learn how to record properly in the first place.

Originally Posted by Sonuschild

Also, a bass guitar can be drastically improved with wicked amounts of eq. Combined with compression, huge eq cut/boost can totally reshape sounds and create a sound you will never get unless you DO that!

OK, I'll give you the fact that huge amounts of signal processing will give you unique "special effect" sounds that can't be gotten otherwise, and that in many instances those sounds can be desired. But that's not what this thread is about, is it?

Less noise, more signal.

G.

[pipelineaudio]

Im interested in how pure you might leave a close mic'ed kick drum when there's a cardoid pattern on it

proximity effect is NOT what you hear naturally, and you have to deal with it

[Ford Van]

Clever how you are trying to guide this away from what was REALLY talked about.

That is ok though. I post my work, and so does pipelineaudio. The work speaks for itself too.

Sonuschild. LOL I like that! If Ford Van ever get's booted from here, I think I will use that one.

[Ford Van]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

proximity effect is NOT what you hear naturally, and you have to deal with it

Good point! In fact, proximity effect is OPPOSIT of what you would hear naturally.

But he knew that I bet!

[Raw-Tracks]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

I've been recording and mixing kick drums for longer than most people on this board have been alive, and I can tell you that a properly tracked kick (or any other instrument, FTM) not only doesn't need "HUGE" EQ curves, but will suffer from them.

You need to qualify statements like these with the style of music that you are tracking. If you are genralizing, then I disagree with you. Certain type of music require pretty drastic EQ on drums, kick drum especially.

[Ford Van]

Indeed! You don't get that metal kick drum sound using slight amounts of eq. And to say that those engineers can't "track their way out of a paper bag" is a rediculous statement!

Mr.Glen, maybe you should click around on that web site of pipelineaudio's. You might be surprised who you are arguing with about this. I would say that maybe he has a little insight into what big time engineers do to the audio sometimes.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by FordPipelineSonusEdReiAudioChild

Im interested in how pure you might leave a close mic'ed kick drum when there's a cardoid pattern on it

proximity effect is NOT what you hear naturally, and you have to deal with it

Look, I never said that NO processing was involved. Kick often gets a boost somehwere between 3.5k and 5k to increase beater slap and/or cut somehwre around 400 to clean out some mud. It's so cliche to say that, that I'm sorry I even need to even bring it up. And kick is usually one of the first instruments to get some leveling compression, especially when the drummer is inconsistant with his playing. And other processing (a little EQ seasoning or verb) than what I mentioned above might be in order for the production. But rarely should more an a few dB of EQ or compression at any given frequency be needed for most productions.

That is a LONG way from advising someone to EQ the fuck out of their mixes and saying that it's usually not possible to get a good mix without twisting the knobs to kingdom come. No matter how you try to parse or spin it, that is just plain awful advice.

And compounding you offense by taking two false personas on this board at one time is just plain pathetic.

Well...at least I hope you appreciate the entertainment that I'm giving you in your short time here before you reincarnate yourself as yet another devil's Internet spawn.

G.

[Ford Van]

LOL...wow!

Southside Goob, now I KNOW you are whacked!

pipelineaudio IS NOT me by a long shot (I think I am MUCH better looking than him! )

Maybe an introduction to him is in order.

http://www.recordingproject.com/arti...php?article=23

What a goob!

[Ford Van]

Now why would I have a cox.com website under pipelineaudio, stating to be in Phoenix AZ, and then have a website for a live sound company in Portland Oregon, and have my Portland persona interview my Phoenix persona?

LOL....The only pathetic thing here Mr.Goob is your attempt to somehow discredit me. Go PM BruceBear or something and maybe you and him can "talk shop" about how you will produce some jazz drums to a metal tune or something. I mean, you OBVIOUSLY have never done a decent metal production.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, this board caters to BOTH kinds of music: metal and hip hop. Those of us who work mostly with rock, blues, jazz, country, soul, R&B, and every other style of music on the planet, and have been doing it for a quarter of a century, simply don't get it and don't belong here.

My fault, I forgot entirely that this board is only for 20-yr-old head bangers and booty chasers. And I also forgot that it doesn't matter a rat's ass that it's metal, that heavy processing of the kick is still not a necessity.

I'll bow out now. My mistake.

G.