Budget mics for Bluegrass recording

[simpleybass]

Hello everybody,

I've read many of the threads on this forum, and learned all sorts of stuff. Thanks to you all.

There is obvioulsy a lot to recording, but all other topics aside, I was hoping for some specific mic advise for my limited budget situation...

We are playing bluegrass, all acoustic instruments: upright bass, violin, mandolin, guitar, banjo, vocals.

I want to record using mics plugged direct into a 4 track analog cassette recorder (Yamaha MT120). The inputs are 1/4".

Since the 4 track doesn't have phantom power, i believe my choices of mics are limited to dynamic mics, or self powered condenser mics. I'm considering using:

Shure sm57 dynamic mic
MCA SP2 condenser mic (self powered with a 9v battery)

I know the Shure 57 is widely used. Anybody used the MCA SP2?

Would either of the two mics produce good results? Would one or the other be better for acoustic instruments vs vocals?

Other self powered mic recomendations in the sub $100 price range would also be appreciated.


Thanks

[chipwits]

Hello,

I play fiddle, guitar and mandolin (old tyme stuff). I don't like the MXL mics for fiddle. After doing some research I am going to get a ribbon microphone. I am gonna try the Shinybox 23 first. (It only costs like $165 - http://www.shinybox.com). Of course you need a preamp, the M-Audio DMP3 should be good for this, only costs $160 or so. Or the Studio Projects VTB-1 (for $99).

A little more than your stated budget, but I think it is worth it. Come to think of it, I don't know of any microphones under $100 that would sound good on the fiddle. If you find one let me know heh.

A photo of Bill Monroe in front of a ribbon microphone (RCA 44-BX):

http://www.coutant.org/morecele/monroe.jpg

James

[Big Kenny]

With what you hope to accomplish, on a four track cassette recorder, get mics you can use for gigs as well. 58's, 57's, senn 800 series, any of that dual
purpose stuff will work out fine. Email Harvey, I think he has some suggetions that will fit your needs

[SRR]

I want to record using mics plugged direct into a 4 track analog cassette recorder (Yamaha MT120). The inputs are 1/4".

I somehow doubt those inputs are mic level inputs, but I could be wrong. As suggested, you will need a pre-amp in addition to the mic/s.

[guitar junkie]

maybe an Audio Technica AT2020 ($99) and hunt around for the deal to get a Pre Sonus tube pre thrown in.... sometimes guitar center will run one of those deals...

[Chris Shaeffer]

4-track cassettes frequently have 1/4" inputs that are mic level. Need impedance convertors to use them with mic cables, but they are designed for mic levels.

[soundchaser59]

I'm not sure why, but I have a hunch that - in your budget range - a Sennheiser E609 or an EV ND267 would sound nice on that violin.....

But with those other instruments, you would really do yourself a huge favor to save some extra $$$$ and get a Studio Projects C1. Even on 4 track cassette you will hear the difference.

If you dont need to do any over dubbing or retakes, if you all play as a band and you dont mind recording the band playing live (in a controlled setting and room) then you might do just as well to buy a couple of budget condensers (or buy one and rent one just like itm until you save some more $$$$) and use perfect mic placement to get a great stereo recording of your band playing. SOmetimes this will give you a great stereo image that is impossible to achieve by recording each instrument on a track and trying to mix them later....

[leddy]

For probably $40 you can get a phantom power supply, so a condenser is still an option. If I understand correctly, Bluegrassers like to use one mic (or two for stereo?) in the center of the group with everyone set up around, no?

I had a Yamaha MT120S, great little 4-track. No reason why you can't get a killer sound, but I agree with soundchaser that a condenser will likely give you better results, unless you are going to go with a super high-quality dynamic.

I don't know about the SP2 mic. For other common budget condenser choices, the $100 limit may be lean with the power supply. If you can save a few more bucks and get a cheap/decent preamp (Studio Projects VTB1 is less than $100) and a cheap/decent mic (plenty of sub-$100 options), you will be WAY better off than using somthing like an SM57.

Good luck.

[jeffree]

Simpley, assuming you want to run four mics at a time, I think the following would be a killer combo for you and your cassette rig. $500 total for four mics and four pre's. A good simple set-up for live performance, too.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMMG102

http://www.zzounds.com/item--STUB1

A few years back, I used a Tascam machine similar to yours, and I don't think you need to overkill here when purchasing mics. The SP B1 is a great workhorse, especially for acoustic stringed instruments (I have two SP B1s for this purpose), and I have a reputable colleague who sings the praise for this little Yamaha mixer, which happens to have 4 mic pres.

That said, there are a lot of other solid choices for low-cost mics and pres these days. Given your situation, though, I can't imagine a much better budget solution than the above.

Good luck,

J.

[simpleybass]

Thanks for the replies!

About the inputs on the 4 tracker, they are 1/4", and there is a mic/line pan for each input. I plan to use xlr to 1/4" converters for each mic.

Yes, one or two room mics is an option I might use sometimes. I just thought it would be cool to record four tracks live, so I would have more ability to mix it later if something was too loud or quiet.

And yeah, I thought about using a mixer, but I couldn't find a cheap one that has 4 outputs (one for each track), not sure if they exist. All the ones I saw output to stereo. So I would have to mix live, and I would lose my ability to mix down later from all 4 tracks.

I'm kinda stuck since I don't want to buy 4 phantom power supplies at $50 each. Just 4 mics & misc accessories are expensive enough. Any other mic recomendations not requiring phantom power?

Also, more feedback on the MCA SP2 vs. the Shure 57 would be appreciated. I'm leaning toward the MCA SP2 because it is self powered (9v battery) condenser mic. However, some reviews report the Shure 57s are good for recording, and bright.

Thanks

[SRR]

Just another option on the phantom power issue, you could get a m-audio audio buddy for around $55 shipped on Ebay, this would give you two channels of phantom power and probably better mic pres then whats built into your Yamaha.

[jeffree]

Originally Posted by simpleybass

And yeah, I thought about using a mixer, but I couldn't find a cheap one that has 4 outputs (one for each track), not sure if they exist. All the ones I saw output to stereo. So I would have to mix live, and I would lose my ability to mix down later from all 4 tracks.

Understood. But using your cassette rig and keeping things low-budget, you may have to make such compromises. On the other hand, the price of digital multitrackers has become so cheap that this option may soon become an attractive one for you. I used my Tascam Porta for a couple of years before making the digital plunge, and I've never regretted it. A small investment for many years of enjoyment, at least for me.

Hope you find what you need,

J.

[simpleybass]

Originally Posted by soundchaser59

If you dont need to do any over dubbing or retakes, if you all play as a band and you dont mind recording the band playing live (in a controlled setting and room) then you might do just as well to buy a couple of budget condensers (or buy one and rent one just like itm until you save some more $$$$) and use perfect mic placement to get a great stereo recording of your band playing. SOmetimes this will give you a great stereo image that is impossible to achieve by recording each instrument on a track and trying to mix them later....

If I went with this option, I'm wondering how I should place the mics and where we should stand. I guess that's the part about "perfect mic placement".

Here's my guess... 2 large diameter cardioid condenser mics placed right next to each other at a 90 degree angle (or would 180 degrees be better?), and we stand in a circle around them. P is for people and m is for mic.

............................p
.................p.....................p
.
...........................mm
.
.................p.....................p
.............................p

Please correct me.

[Big Kenny]

get a cad m179, it is omni and will record the room.

[soundchaser59]

Ya know, that would be really, REALLY tempting to try, Kenny....

Get two omni pattern mics, set them in the center of your group circle, so they are the same distance from each other as they are from the people, then record. Pan the two tracks HR and HL. I bet that would give you a really cool stereo image. I've never tried that but it seems like it might end up sounding really cool.

I also wonder if you could use two figure 8 patterns in the center of your circle, maybe turn them 90 degrees relative to each other. Then after you record you could clone the two tracks and reverse the phase on the clones and use 4 tracks to make your stereo image. You might even get great results using the great "mid-side" technique with one omni in the center and one figure 8. Then clone the figure 8 track, reverse phase on the clone, and pan HL and HR, with the omni in the center.

[Treeline]

Originally Posted by simpleybass

If I went with this option, I'm wondering how I should place the mics and where we should stand. I guess that's the part about "perfect mic placement".

Here's my guess... 2 large diameter cardioid condenser mics placed right next to each other at a 90 degree angle (or would 180 degrees be better?), and we stand in a circle around them. P is for people and m is for mic.

............................p
.................p.....................p
.
...........................mm
.
.................p.....................p
.............................p

Please correct me.

I've done that with a single Studio Projects C3, which is a multi pattern mic set to omni patterning. Run it using your proposed placement through a preamp like the SP or M-Audio earlier suggested, and you have a really clean and clear thing going, but with a single track. You could add one or two SDC mics off to either side on booms and directed at the opposite side of the circle for a pannable ambient signal sent to tracks 2 and 3. MXL 603s are directional enough to work for this and they also need a preamp and phantom power. Modulation and dynamics will require mic savvy musicians and a bit of choreography though. We did this at a live gig and, while the gain was a bit low for live work due to the omni nature of the central mic, the tracks were simply stunning.

I also recorded a string quartet and a quartet - accompanied vocalist using this same setup during a concert. Again, placement is critical, but the idea works well and has a pretty cool vibe to it at the same time. The musicians, especially bluegrass artists, get right on board pretty quickly as it harkens back to the early days of Bill Monroe and 1950s radio.

An alternative idea where the budget is tight is to use a pair of SP B1 LDC mics, (under $100) one right over the other and upside down in the center of the group. You end up with a stereo mic configuration where the diaphragms are as close as you can practicably get them. Turn one 80 degrees to the other and place the musicians in a semicircle of about 200 - 270 degrees around the address sides of the mics. You'll get everything and you'll get stereo placement without major phase cancellation issues. The B1 is neutral and is quite good for group vocals and instruments. Once you toggle a couple of booms to place the mics in position (over and under), secure them with gaffer tape and they'll be fine.

[dtb]

we do this all the time...............as many as 4-6-7 folks around 1-2 condenser mics.........granted, I use pres and LDC mics. I tried the 57s the same way.........you will be disappointed............my thoughts are to get the band members to chip in..........and go all the way, with some pres and condensers.........ya'll will be way more satisfied.

we do this with 2 mics in the center, on stands when we feel like sitting down, and I made a rig to attach 2-4 mics on the ceiling for when we feel fricky and stand up. the recordings turn out real good.

[simpleybass]

Originally Posted by Treeline

An alternative idea where the budget is tight is to use a pair of SP B1 LDC mics, (under $100) one right over the other and upside down in the center of the group. You end up with a stereo mic configuration where the diaphragms are as close as you can practicably get them. Turn one 80 degrees to the other and place the musicians in a semicircle of about 200 - 270 degrees around the address sides of the mics.

That's exactly what I needed to know. Thanks for the details Treeline.

I think I'm gonna get 2 of the MCA SP2 LDC self powered condensers ($59 each) and try this stereo set-up, plugging them straight into the 4 track. I've considered the SP B1s, but they would run about $150 each with phantom power supplies.

If I want more flexibility later, I might buy pres, or more mics to try recording 4 tracks simultaneously, but not now.

Thanks to everyone that provided suggestions.

[simpleybass]

Well, I listened to all your advice and changed my plan.

I got a B1 and a B3 from studio projects. They both sound really nice. The B1 is definitely brighter, but the B3 is real nice too, and it's cool to have the omni and figure eight options.

I solved the phantom power problem, and gained the ability to boost my signals with this http://www.zzounds.com/item--STOPR4. Nice deal, 4 channels of preamp with phantom power for $79! Simple solid state, real quiet.

I also borrowed 2 SDCs from a friend who wasn't using them. They are Tascam PE-125 units. Anyone know anything about these mics? They have power switches with 3 settings: "off", "M", and "V". Any ideas what M and V mean?

I can use just the B3 as a room mic (set to omni), but we got nice results using the B1 and B3 (set to cardioid) set up for x/y stereo, with B3 (upside down) right over the B1, turned out 80 degrees. Vocals and acoustic instruments from up to 5 people standing in a semi circle go into this stereo set-up nicely, especially when the band members position themselves properly around the mics. Thanks to Treeline for telling me about that set-up.

The upright bass was hard to get a good sound in the mix, so I used the third track to close-mic it using a PE-125 wrapped in a towel behind the tailpiece. Decent sound. I keep the bass positioned in the room so it bleeds as little as possible into the stereo B1 & B3 mics.

Mix down options are limited, but I do have some control with the three tracks. A lot hinges on the live mix, where people stand, move in for leads, etc. As the group hears the recordings, they are learning how to position themselves. One nagging problem...the banjo is too loud if the player is standing close enough to get a good sound on their vocals. Haven't found a solution for this, other than having him try to sing loud and play quiet.

We are amazed how good the sound quality is with the B1 B3 stereo set up and separate mic for bass. Those Studio Projects mics are awesome! The B1 sounds so good for acoustic guitar and mandolin. I'm glad I got the SP mics.

Thanks to everyone who provided suggestions. Really, really appreciated.

[Harvey Gerst]

Add a $39 Behringer ECM8000 to record the bass. Place it near the neck/body joint, pointed down towards the floor.

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by simpleybass

I can use just the B3 as a room mic (set to omni), but we got nice results using the B1 and B3 (set to cardioid) set up for x/y stereo, with B3 (upside down) right over the B1, turned out 80 degrees. Vocals and acoustic instruments from up to 5 people standing in a semi circle go into this stereo set-up nicely, especially when the band members position themselves properly around the mics.

With a B1 and a B3, you can do a very nice MS setup that is ideal for miking acoustic musicians in a "gather round the mic" configuration. Set up the B1 aimed right at the center of the entire group. Place the B3 in its figure-8 setting in the same upside down position, with the two sides facing exactly to the sides of the group (so that the figure-8 null is pointing dead center).

Then mix the mics as follows: B1 gets panned dead center. The B3 gets split into two channels, one panned hard to the left, the other panned hard to the right and phase-inverted. Start by bringing up the level of the B1 to the desired level - it will be pure mono. Then bring up the two faders of the B3, keeping them exactly equal to each other (though not necessarily equal to the B1).

As you bring up the faders of the B3, you will find that your lovely mono recording gradually shifts to full stereo. You can determine the overall "width" of the stereo image by choosing the setting of your B3 faders.

This is an ideal way to capture a bluegrass band "in the round".

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by simpleybass

I also borrowed 2 SDCs from a friend who wasn't using them. They are Tascam PE-125 units. Anyone know anything about these mics? They have power switches with 3 settings: "off", "M", and "V". Any ideas what M and V mean?

Probably a low cut switch, M for music and V for voice. The voice setting would be the low cut.

Also, you should enter the essay contest to win a free Shure 330 ribbon mic, which is a few threads down.

[Flatpicker]

Originally Posted by Harvey Gerst

Add a $39 Behringer ECM8000 to record the bass. Place it near the neck/body joint, pointed down towards the floor.

Yes, yes, yes! Been there, done that, and it works well. (Not that Harvey needs a "second", but just thought I'd chime in.)

Dynamic mics can get the job done, but how well they sound seems to be more dependent on pre-amp quality, IMHO.

If you want your listeners to listen to the finished product more than once, stay away from overly "bright" mics. The KEL HM-1 looks worth investigating for a budget "bluegrass" condenser.

[simpleybass]

Originally Posted by Harvey Gerst

Add a $39 Behringer ECM8000 to record the bass. Place it near the neck/body joint, pointed down towards the floor.

Harvey, I'd like to try that setup, I'm hoping you could give me a bit more advice.

First, regarding the mic...I checked out the specs on the Behringer ECM8000. Do you think I might be able to use a Tascam PE-125? I can't find any useful info online about these mics, and I don't have a manual. They are 7.5" long and 3/4" diameter cylindrical small diameter condenser mics that take an internal AA battery. The case says "Professional Electret Condenser Microphone PE-125 imp 200 ohms Tascam TEAC professional division." They have changeable capsules, so I could use the omni. I'm thinking this might be reasonably similar to the ECM8000. If it doesnt sound good, I'll buy the Behringer.

However, I need more info about the mic placement so I can try the PE-125 before I buy another mic... "Near the neck/body joint, pointed toward the floor".... Do you mean in front of the strings, on the side (shoulder), or in the back of the instrument? About how far from the instrument? And did you mean this mic placement instead of the mic behind the tailpiece, or in addition to it.


Thanks!

[Harvey Gerst]

Originally Posted by simpleybass

Harvey, I'd like to try that setup, I'm hoping you could give me a bit more advice.

First, regarding the mic...I checked out the specs on the Behringer ECM8000. Do you think I might be able to use a Tascam PE-125? I can't find any useful info online about these mics, and I don't have a manual. They are 7.5" long and 3/4" diameter cylindrical small diameter condenser mics that take an internal AA battery. The case says "Professional Electret Condenser Microphone PE-125 imp 200 ohms Tascam TEAC professional division." They have changeable capsules, so I could use the omni. I'm thinking this might be reasonably similar to the ECM8000. If it doesnt sound good, I'll buy the Behringer.

If you already own it, try it with the omni capsule. If the Tascam PE-125 is the mic I'm thinking about, it uses Primo capsules (and was made for Tascam by Primo). It's similar to the Nakamichi CM-300 mics.

However, I need more info about the mic placement so I can try the PE-125 before I buy another mic... "Near the neck/body joint, pointed toward the floor".... Do you mean in front of the strings, on the side (shoulder), or in the back of the instrument? About how far from the instrument? And did you mean this mic placement instead of the mic behind the tailpiece, or in addition to it?

Yes, in front of the strings, on the side of the instrument, about 6" in front of the fingerboard. This is instead of your current placement. Since you're the bass player, try it before the next session and see if you like it. It's a very natural sound, no eq needed, and great if you do slap bass stuff.

Thanks!

You're welcome.