Video Cam mics as overheads & more?

[NRS]

I mostly do live sound work so have always used dynamic mics but have' recently been looking into purchasing my first condenser and am thinking a decent external camcorder mic might be a good inexpensive first buy in hopes that it will also serve for a variety of other recording purposes as well (untill I know exactly what I want out of a good single LDC and SDC pair anyway). A big factor in this desicion is the specs I've seen on such mics which seems to indicate a wider flatter frequency response than most dedicated vocal/instrument condensers. I'd imagine this would make them comparable to measurement mics which might be great for full frequency DAT recording and possibly even suitable for drum overheads in a 3 or 4 mic technique where one would want to pick up the entire kit, not just the cymbals. What do you guys think? As for other applications such as vocals or instruments.......I just dont know. Any one ever try it?

I figure I cant go wrong either way because I already have a camcorder that could use such a mic and it will probably save me from buying some crappy SDC pair at the moment that I'll likely regret later. (I figure its probably good to own at least one battery powered condenser for field work anyway). As for the mics themselves, my budget is around $100 or less and my camera is a small hand held Canon so the mic cant be too obtrusive but reasonable quality is still desired. Anyone got any recommendations or alternative suggestions? What site might offer a comparison of such mics? Will they even hold thier own in any of the applications I've discribed or am I just trying to get a whole lot of something for nothing here? Thanks in advance.

[cafr]

Originally Posted by NRS

I'd imagine this would make them comparable to measurement mics which might be great for full frequency DAT recording and possibly even suitable for drum overheads in a 3 or 4 mic technique where one would want to pick up the entire kit, not just the cymbals. What do you guys think? As for other applications such as vocals or instruments.......I just dont know. Any one ever try it?

I figure I cant go wrong either way because I already have a camcorder that could use such a mic and it will probably save me from buying some crappy SDC pair at the moment that I'll likely regret later. my budget is around $100 or less
and my camera is a small hand held Canon
so the mic cant be too obtrusive but reasonable quality is still desired.

Anyone got any recommendations or alternative suggestions?

What site might offer a comparison of such mics?

Thanks in advance.

All right, you have a small consumer camcorder so and you're interested in getting a good stereo condenser mic. In order to connect it to your camera, you'll need a XLR to 1/8" connection like this:
http://tinyurl.com/dwqgu
Since your camcorder probably does not have XLR inputs to it.

I have a suggestion solely on the camcorder/DAT aspect but it may not work well for drums, I don't know since I don't play the drums.
I researched the mic a little when I thought I was going to get a camcorder but I was nto able to. People say it was fantastic and it even mounts on the cold/hot shoe very nicely.
Check it out, the Audio-Technica AT822 - Cardioid Stereo Condenser Microphone.
http://tinyurl.com/8z5pt

Its about $150 over your budget, heh, but its nice looking and works well.

Perhaps others could suggest something in your budget and for your needs but keep the AT822 in mind.

If you're going to do DAT recordings, you must want high quality and a $100 mic may not be all that pleasing.

[cafr]

My mistake. I stand corrected.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...3dc/index.html :

Includes a 1.7' (0.5 m) cable (XLRF-type to stereo 3.5 mm mini-plug); and a 10' (3 m) cable (XLRF-type to two mono 3.5 mm mini-plugs)

[themaddog]

Your idea isn't at all far fetched. I have a buddy who has a stereo, battery powered condenser mic that was meant for camcorder that sounds great. I want to say it was Sony, but I honestly can't remember. We used it on our second album, and although the placement could have been better picked, it worked pretty well.

-MD

[Treeline]

When you start relying on camcorder mics for good audio, you are taking risks and decent sound might turn out to be elusive. It's a bit like what my Grandfather said about the blind man who was looking in the dark cellar at night for a black cat who wasn't there.

Camcorder mics are compromises to begin with - maybe occasionally very good compromises, but something has been sacrificed for portability. Another thing to watch for is the quality of the audio preamps on a camcorder, and particularly a consumer grade unit - not great.

So sure - experiment and you might find something that can do yeoman duty. Just remember that the main elements in a handheld camcorder audio signal chain are compromised designs to facilitate portability and affordability. The audio will be far better if you use a better mic with a decent preamp and synch a digital audio recorder to the camcorder.

[NRS]

Cafr,
Those mics look nice indeed but unfortuneatly are out of my price range, especially the second one which costs nearly what my camcorder did! (That would be like putting really expensive rims on a Hundai). I did see several others at B&H that were in my price range however so the link was still helpful. Thanks. The Rode on this link seems pretty good for the money although its a bit bulky for my small cam and only mono: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...rch&Q=&ci=8902

Originally Posted by Treeline

Camcorder mics are compromises to begin with - maybe occasionally very good compromises, but something has been sacrificed for portability. Another thing to watch for is the quality of the audio preamps on a camcorder, and particularly a consumer grade unit - not great.

So sure - experiment and you might find something that can do yeoman duty. Just remember that the main elements in a handheld camcorder audio signal chain are compromised designs to facilitate portability and affordability. The audio will be far better if you use a better mic with a decent preamp and synch a digital audio recorder to the camcorder.

Treeline,
Actually in this situation the mic will initially be used more for the other applications than camcorder use so I'm not too worried about the limitations of my camcorders preamp at the moment and always knew I could use it with outboard gear anyway. Im just figuring since I cant afford much more than a pair of Behringer C-2's as stereo condensers for my studio at the moment, the money would probably be better spent on a decent camcorder mic that wont go to waste later once I decide to upgrade to a better condenser pair. The cams internal mic actually isnt that bad to begin with but an external mic would be helpful during super quiet scenes when the tape tranport moters can be heard in the background due to its compact design which forces the moters to be too close to such a sensitive mic. For louder stuff its fine though.

I'm beginning to think maybe I should just be looking into a regular pair of studio condensers that run on batteries instead. Since camcorder use is really my secondary priority, this may prove a better option for general studio use in the long run because I wouldnt need to upgrade later (I'd be willing to shell out a few more dollars in this case). Of course I'd have to run mono if I did decide to mount one of them to my camcorder but I could always run a mini stero jack to a couple of mic stands if I really needed to or even pick up a compact SDC pair and find a way to mount them both to the cam. I see very few condensers out there that actually give you the battery powered option though and I would prefer something that picks up a full frequency with accuracy, not just higher frequency cymbals and acoustic stuff. Any thoughts?

[cafr]

NRS,

If you're referring to the Rode Videomic, it has gotten excellent reviews for camcorder use. It is a bit bulky but that may make you look more of a 'pro'.
As for the mono, almost all shotguns are mono unless you're spending a few bills and its really not worth having a stereo shotgun mic especially for your application. I'm not sure how a shotgun mic would work for drums compared to other mics because they tend to be directional and notsomuch insturment mics. I own a senn. shotgun mic that I can't see much use for unless I want to be a few feet from the subject and picking up one sound since its directional and isolates offaxis noise/sound well. It does what its meant to but its also not meant to be a insturment mic.

If you get a chance, search B&H for these:
ECM-MS907 - Stereo Condenser Microphone
I believe I have this mic and it [edit]was[/edit]is great.

Sony ECM-HST1 STEREO MIC


Both of these mics are under a $100 and are battery powered and have a 1/8" connection so there's no worry about XLR cables.

[QUOTE=NRS]Cafr,
Those mics look nice indeed but unfortuneatly are out of my price range, especially the second one which costs nearly what my camcorder did! (That would be like putting really expensive rims on a Hundai). I did see several others at B&H that were in my price range however so the link was still helpful. Thanks. The Rode on this link seems pretty good for the money although its a bit bulky for my small cam and only mono: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...rch&Q=&ci=8902

[NRS]

Yeah, those look much better for cam mounting. Thanks. I think in the end I'm just going to have to purchace my cam mic and overheads seperately if I'm to expect any reasonable performance out of either.

Theres one other mic by Nady that actually looks like a good compromise between the Sony's and Rode. The PFD specs and the price ($119) are right in the middle of both though. I think it might make a good affordable mic for a portable DAT.

http://nady.com/products/product_pgs/cmmics_pg2_c.htm

[cafr]

i know nothing about the nady mic so if you get it, let us know how it works for you.

Originally Posted by NRS

Yeah, those look much better for cam mounting. Thanks. I think in the end I'm just going to have to purchace my cam mic and overheads seperately if I'm to expect any reasonable performance out of either.

Theres one other mic by Nady that actually looks like a good compromise between the Sony's and Rode. The PFD specs and the price ($119) are right in the middle of both though. I think it might make a good affordable mic for a portable DAT.

http://nady.com/products/product_pgs/cmmics_pg2_c.htm

[jgourd]

Originally Posted by cafr

My mistake. I stand corrected.

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wi...3dc/index.html :

Includes a 1.7' (0.5 m) cable (XLRF-type to stereo 3.5 mm mini-plug); and a 10' (3 m) cable (XLRF-type to two mono 3.5 mm mini-plugs)

I have used one of these as a drum overhead at several gigs and had excellent results.

[NRS]

Interesting......... I just noticed when looking at that Audio Technica again that nearly every spec is identical to the Nady CM-2S I posted the link to. Look at the downloadable Acrobat frequency response chart for CM-25, its got some very specific peaks and dips that are not exactly ruler flat but would align perfectly if laid over the AT822's chart. This tells me the CM-25 and AT822 are probably the same mic in a different housing. Can anyone confirm? Of course this would make the Nady a much better buy at less than half the street price of the AT. ($120 vs $250)

[cafr]

Many mics are probably like that. When you buy something, anything, you're also paying for the name. AT just happens to be known moreso than Nady; this does not mean it is better--just known.

Originally Posted by NRS

Interesting......... I just noticed when looking at that Audio Technica again that nearly every spec is identical to the Nady CM-2S I posted the link to. Look at the downloadable Acrobat frequency response chart for CM-25, its got some very specific peaks and dips that are not exactly ruler flat but would align perfectly if laid over the AT822's chart. This tells me the CM-25 and AT822 are probably the same mic in a different housing. Can anyone confirm? Of course this would make the Nady a much better buy at less than half the street price of the AT. ($120 vs $250)