reverse-bowing problem

[LI_Slim]

I bought my 14-year-old son a Martin DX1

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/514814/

which has been great except that he leaves it lying around all the time in various locations in the house, and, I think as a result of that, the neck has reverse-bowed (I don't think this is the right term for this, but you know what I mean) to the extent that there is buzzing on the lower frets.

Rather than take it back to Sam Ash, I have tried the fix the problem myself by tuning it step or so too high and letting it sit in the case for a few days. It has helped but it's still not quite back to normal.

Is my fix a terrible idea? Is there anything else I can do?

[seismetr0n]

maybe get a hanging mount, they say that helps keep the neck straight.

increasing the tension isnt so bad, but it might put too much tension on your bridge

??
gl

[SuicideNote]

Spend $25 and take it to a guitar tech at your local music shop. He'll tell you if it can be fixed. Has made many adjustments like the kind that you need. I don't see how your solution to tighten the strings would solve any problems.

Over time, the wood on the fretboard can become dried out or cracked. Sometimes this will raise the frets enough to cause a buzz. Like I said, take it to a pro.

[Farview]

Take an allen wrench and loosen the truss rod. You will find an allen head inside the hole facing the neck. Turn it 1/4 counter clockwise. See if that fixes it. If the truss rod becomes loose and the neck is still bowed the wrong way, you've got problems.


BTW, if the neck gets closer to straight with 1/4 turn, but not quite, do another 1/4 turn. It will take a while to settle, so don't adjust it too much at once.

[Light]

Just loosen the truss rod.

And I'm sorry, but if you think increassing the tension on the strings is going to help, you shouldn't even do the truss rod. Take it to a good repair shop and have them deal with it. Most of us don't even charge if it really is just a truss rod adjustment.

And most of us call that back-bowed, for future reference.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[Dani Pace]

Agree: It sounds like the truss rod needs loosened a little. It should be a minor thing to fix, you can do it yourself. Just loosen the rod a little bit at a time, check how it plays, loosen a little more, repeat this process untill the buzz goes away. If the action gets too high the bridge may need to be lowered but the buzz should be gone. An easy way to check the truss adjustment is to press a string at the first and last fret, look for a small gap (about enough to slip a medimum to heavy pick through) between the string and fret at about the mid point of the fingerboard. If the fingerboard looks like I just described and you still have a buzz, then it is likely to be a high fret which can be repaired by a good repair person. I wouldn't recomend fileing the frets yourself.

[LI_Slim]

The only problem with that advice is that the Martin DX1 does not have an adjustable truss rod.

Actually, my strategy seems to be working. It's gotten much better. Probably more because it's being kept in the case at a stable humidity for awhile.

It makes sense though. All necks are slightly bowed. This one wasn't actually bent back, it just was too straight. Since guitars are designed to keep a stready amount of bowing in light of the tension of the strings, it just makes sense that making them tighter will get the neck back to the way it was designed.

[Light]

Originally Posted by LI_Slim

The only problem with that advice is that the Martin DX1 does not have an adjustable truss rod.

Wrong again. They are adjusted thru the sound hole, and once again, if you can't even find the truss rod, take it to someone who knows what they are doing, because you clearly DON'T. You can damage your guitar by tuning it up that high. Take it to a professional. If all they do is adjust the truss rod, they probably won't even charge you for it, so there is NO excuse for not getting it taken care of properly.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[ermghoti]

Take it in, and ask the tech to show you what he's doing. Keeping the strings tuned tight may, may cause the neck to bow forward more, but it will go right back when you re-tune to standard. You also run a chance of pulling the bridge loose. Fun times.

[LI_Slim]

Back bowing, that's the phrase.

Well, if I didn't need any help I wouldn't have asked for advice. I do appreciate the advice that you all have given, although I could do without the one or two arrogant comments.

If I'm bringing it in I'm bringing it back to Sam Ash, which is kind of a pain in the ass so I guess I've been avoiding it...

[gvarko]

A few years back I bought a nice Ibanez Artwood acoustic ($400 +) from Sam Ash. Needless to say I didn't care for it properly and it ended up with severe back-bow. I went back to Sam Ash and had a tech look at it. He told me it was worthless and couldn't be fixed.

I hope you have better luck than I did.

[LI_Slim]

Originally Posted by gvarko

A few years back I bought a nice Ibanez Artwood acoustic ($400 +) from Sam Ash. Needless to say I didn't care for it properly and it ended up with severe back-bow. I went back to Sam Ash and had a tech look at it. He told me it was worthless and couldn't be fixed.

I hope you have better luck than I did.

I know. I wouldn't bring it back there except that it's under warranty and Sam Ash is an authorized dealer.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by LI_Slim

I know. I wouldn't bring it back there except that it's under warranty and Sam Ash is an authorized dealer.

Do it before the warranty runs out. If it isn't a simple adjustment, it can be costly to fix.

[Light]

Originally Posted by LI_Slim

If I'm bringing it in I'm bringing it back to Sam Ash, which is kind of a pain in the ass so I guess I've been avoiding it...

If you are in NYC, take it to Susan Lindel at Ludlow music. She's a good friend, and an excellent repair person.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[LI_Slim]

Originally Posted by Light

If you are in NYC, take it to Susan Lindel at Ludlow music. She's a good friend, and an excellent repair person.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Thanks........

[LI_Slim]

Okay, it's fixed. As the educated know, Farview's original advice was correct. I'm sorry for being so careless and dense.

It was helpful for me to find this link: http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/trussrods.htm -- which gave me the size of the allen wrench I needed (5mm) and some other details. (It's difficult to find to right size by trial and error -- and without screwing up the nut -- in light of the fact that the adjustment has to be made with the strings on.) In retrospect, I probably could have phoned Martin also (their website seemed unhelpful).

After two 1/8 turns and letting it sit for a few minutes it was fine.

[Treeline]

Larry -

Be sure the guitar isn't drying out. This month has brought a lot of varying humidity in the NE. Right now it's really dry in Vermont although the temp isn't too low. A week ago it was the other way around. Rapid changes in humidity might be playing with the neck.

The best way to keep the thing stable (and your Breedlove as well) is to keep the guitar in an open case or a stand in a room with a humidifier going, so the room itself has controlled humidity. The next best thing is a case or soundhole humidifier. But anything - even a sponge in a soapbox - is better than doing nothing.

[LI_Slim]

Tree, as I started out saying, I think it happened to begin with because he left the thing lying around any old place.

Isn't there debate about sound hole or other in-case humidifiers? As I recall Breedlove recommends keeping it in the case in an appropriately-humidified room (and not against an exterior wall, etc) but not to use a humidifier.

[Treeline]

That's right; its why in-case or soundhole humidifiers are second choice. Still far, far better than doing nothing, though.

Little humidifiers have a couple of design issues - (1) they hold only a small amount of water and can dry out unexpectedly, and (2) they tend to concentrate humidity wherever they happen to be, especially in a closed case. I suppose you could overfill one - wet sponge instead of damp - and have it drip all over, too.

Once I heard of someone leaving a guitar in its case for a couple of months with a freshly filled humidifier, only to find mildew at work when he opened it later. That's just carelessness, though. It's a bit like driving off the road - not always the road's fault.

[LI_Slim]

Well, as it turned out, the truss rod adjustment didn't work (although it seemed to help a little at first). My initial supposition (and Treeline's more specific one) turned out to be correct. Because he left it lying around it got all dried out. The tech guy at Sam Ash gave us a copy of an article from Taylor explaining that when the body gets too dry it contracts and flattens out, which lowers the bridge, which causes the strings to get too close to the neck. There was nothing wrong with the neck and it didn't need a truss rod adjustment. Sam Ash had some sort of super-humidifying device and after two weeks (and $65) it came back as good as new. He did recommend a sound-hole humidifier for it ($10), the type that sits between the strings so that it is suspended in the hole.

[Treeline]

Here's a link to Frank Ford's incredible site - this one deals with mystery buzzes, but the whole place is well worth exploring. What a fantastic resource!

Frank Ford's link on Buzz Diagnosis

[Light]

Originally Posted by Treeline

Here's a link to Frank Ford's incredible site - this one deals with mystery buzzes, but the whole place is well worth exploring. What a fantastic resource!

Frank Ford's link on Buzz Diagnosis

Frank is a good friend, and one of the smartest repair people around. However, he (living as he does in the San Fransisco area) does not have much experience with humidity issues. He once told me that he has, in the last 35 or so years, had only one humidity related crack in his shop. This was one the things which helped me realize just how regonal guitar maintinence really is.

For what it's worth, those A frame braced Martins (the 16's, the 15's, the 1's and anything with an X in the name) are extremely prone to humidity issues, so even though they are inexpensive guitars, you really have to keep on top of the humidity all the time.

I've writen more a few posts on this, so if you want an upper midwest view on the subject, look them up. I do NOT recomend the Planet Waves humidifier, by the way, for two reasons. First, it is a pain in the ass to fill, so you are less likely to do so; and second, it is made of a hard plastic which could easily damage the finish on your guitar. It is also completely useless if you don't put your guitar IN THE CASE. I don't know if that is or is not what your son is doing these days, but if not, you should get him a Kyser Lifeguard. They are still more effective in the case, but they will work out of it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi