Punch-in: Yes or No?

[Jack Russell]

I've used n-tracks a few times now, and I've also used old analog tape and ADATS. My impression is that n-tracks does NOT allow you to do a punch-in on the fly.* This, to me, is a huge negative for this otherwise fine program.

Or am I just not aware of how to do it? Can anyone explain how?

[*Note: for novices, "punch-in on the fly" means to listen to the track and then click on record in a section as you are listening to it. For example, you have a guitar lead solo on track X. You screwed up a lick, but you love the rest of it. So you play the track and then you enable recording right where you replay the lick, and then disable recording, thereby keeping the old and new parts all convenienlty on the same track X. My experience with n-tracks is that it automatically opens up a new track Y, when you are playing track X. This leads to an ungodly number of extra tracks with different takes, and you can very soon be lost. ]

[David Katauskas]

nTrack does allow punch-in...I'll have to look tonight on how to do it.
An alternative is to just record the "punch-in" on a seperate track, then combine the two by splicing.

[Jack Russell]

Originally Posted by David Katauskas

nTrack does allow punch-in...I'll have to look tonight on how to do it.
An alternative is to just record the "punch-in" on a seperate track, then combine the two by splicing.

Yep. But how easy is splicing?

[larrye]

Can punch in ! Arm the track for recording and then just hit record
Larrye

[David Katauskas]

Originally Posted by Jack Russell

Yep. But how easy is splicing?

Assuming that you're using version 4.x, you can highlight a part of the track by clicking and holding the left mouse button down, and drag horizontally across a section of the track. Then let go of the mouse button. You should now have a section of the track highlighted.
Now, go to the menu Edit | Non-Destructive | Splice (or splice at start). Voila!

However, this just splices. Now you need to make a void by dragging the little splice indicators. It's usually best to drag the beginning of the latter portion of the splice to the right. This should de-couple the splice.

Once you've created your new punch-in, you can simple re-size it, then drag it (Ctrl-left mouse click hold) into the void that you created with from the splice.

It sounds more complicated than it actually is. Good luck.

[IronFlippy]

Splicing reduces the risk of accidentally recording over a good part in an effort to redo a lick.

EDIT: I recommend using David's advise, but if you insist on using punch in, then it's as easy as hitting play, and when it comes to the part you want to punch, hit record. To record over a previous part, you have to arm the track to record (little circle that goes red when you click on it). Then the same process: play, hit record to punch in, record or stop to punch out.

[Jack Russell]

Thanks, guys!
Now if I could just hook up my computer in my studio!

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by IronFlippy

Splicing reduces the risk of accidentally recording over a good part in an effort to redo a lick.

EDIT: I recommend using David's advise, but if you insist on using punch in, then it's as easy as hitting play, and when it comes to the part you want to punch, hit record. To record over a previous part, you have to arm the track to record (little circle that goes red when you click on it). Then the same process: play, hit record to punch in, record or stop to punch out.

I came to this thread via searching for something else. I dont use N-track although I tried the demo before and liked it, and reccomend it to people who want to save $$.

HOWEVER: I hope they fix this in the next version ( or there is a better way). Maybe someone from fasoft reads this forum.

In Sonar, you can set specific punch in/out points, very precisely. You could literally punch in one note: you set the points, the actually recording will only take place during the time for that particular note.
What you are describing is merely "taping over" a previously recorded part. If one person is recording and playing, its basically impossible to punch in a small passage with any precision.

I didnt know how to use this feature in Sonar until recently, and it kicks ASS! I tried it on a fast 32-note scale passage: I zoomed in on on note, set the punch in/out surrounding that note, and recorded the scale again. Sure enough, it punched in just that one note flawlessly.

I am guessing that N-track already has this, maybe it isnt documented correctly. If not, they should get it: splicing different tracks together is a time-consuming hassle when you can confidently just punch in on the same track.

[Jack Russell]

Originally Posted by DavidK

I came to this thread via searching for something else. I dont use N-track although I tried the demo before and liked it, and reccomend it to people who want to save $$.

HOWEVER: I hope they fix this in the next version ( or there is a better way). Maybe someone from fasoft reads this forum.

In Sonar, you can set specific punch in/out points, very precisely. You could literally punch in one note: you set the points, the actually recording will only take place during the time for that particular note.
What you are describing is merely "taping over" a previously recorded part. If one person is recording and playing, its basically impossible to punch in a small passage with any precision.

I didnt know how to use this feature in Sonar until recently, and it kicks ASS! I tried it on a fast 32-note scale passage: I zoomed in on on note, set the punch in/out surrounding that note, and recorded the scale again. Sure enough, it punched in just that one note flawlessly.

I am guessing that N-track already has this, maybe it isnt documented correctly. If not, they should get it: splicing different tracks together is a time-consuming hassle when you can confidently just punch in on the same track.

Well said! That is precisely what I need a recording machine/program to do. My limited experience with n-track is that the splicing process is a pain in the ass. If you are doing multiple takes of a lead solo (or perhaps a lead vocal), then you end up with a large number of tracks cluttering up the screen. What adds to the headache is that each track is not given a user-friendly name. So it is not easy to know which track had the little bend of a note you did so well, which track had the wammy bar dive that was priceless, nor which track has Hendrix-style chop that you want to keep. You then have to go in and weed through each track and edit it down to what you want, and then rename it. (Actually that is the subject for another thread: "How to Rename n-track Tracks?") For less than perfect singers, you have to do a perfect take all the way through to avoid the mess of cluttered tracks.

In other words, having unlimited tracks sound cool, yet in practical terms, it can be a mess.

[DavidK]

Out of curiousity I looked a bit ( just a bit) on the net:

it appears n-track indeed does have auto-punch. I have seen it mentioned numerous times, one of their featured artists says he uses it all the time

I would expect this. Regardless of its price, N-track seems like a heavy-duty program that can compete very well with more expensive stuff. Punching in is like recording 101, N-track supports advanced stuff like rewire, certainly they have auto-punch.

[Jack Russell]

Originally Posted by DavidK

Out of curiousity I looked a bit ( just a bit) on the net:

it appears n-track indeed does have auto-punch. I have seen it mentioned numerous times, one of their featured artists says he uses it all the time

I would expect this. Regardless of its price, N-track seems like a heavy-duty program that can compete very well with more expensive stuff. Punching in is like recording 101, N-track supports advanced stuff like rewire, certainly they have auto-punch.

Thanks for looking. I'll check it out.

[Slowjett]

Ive used the Auto Punch in on N-track before... When I'd screw up a rythem guitar track.. I forgot how, but its as easy as highlighting the area you want to punch in and then setting it to punch in, then playing back, start playing along and it will do seemless punch in.... I forget how though =]

so im not much help

[David Katauskas]

But how will it handle things like severe changes in amplitude? IOW, a punch-in may have a wave that starts at a negative amplitude at that point in time, while the tail of the original wave has a positive amplitude. This will always cause an undesirable pop in the signal. My guess is that you still have to adjust the punch-in to line up the signals. Also, as long as the punch-in is set to non-destructive mode, then you can always resort back to the original track if needed.

[DavidK]

Originally Posted by David Katauskas

But how will it handle things like severe changes in amplitude? IOW, a punch-in may have a wave that starts at a negative amplitude at that point in time, while the tail of the original wave has a positive amplitude. This will always cause an undesirable pop in the signal. My guess is that you still have to adjust the punch-in to line up the signals. Also, as long as the punch-in is set to non-destructive mode, then you can always resort back to the original track if needed.

This is merely a matter of being a decent musician. Sure, if you punch in a zillion times louder it will sound like you punched in a zillion times louder

I made this classical record that was a real learning experience for me: The work was really hard and probably 30 minutes long. I dont think there are more than 3 seconds in a row from one take!! On a rock album, drums and guitars can hide a lot of stuff like punch-ins, but this was 18 string players in a concert hall. Granted, the engineers were from a huge label (BMG), but I was amazed that they could actually do this. It took 27 hours, I made some serious cash.

[sonnylarsen]

I have used punch ins on n-track several times, although only on vocal tracks. When the singer got a great take except for one little phrase or word here or there. It works fine, but you need to watch your latency if you are manually punching in.

[David Katauskas]

Originally Posted by DavidK

This is merely a matter of being a decent musician. Sure, if you punch in a zillion times louder it will sound like you punched in a zillion times louder

I certainly agree...that would cause havoc during the mixing process by having to continually change levels on a single track just to keep it balanced. And even when it's balanced, it will still sound different.

What I was refering to was where the punch in starts (or any splice for that matter). My mindset was in the VST development world where the amplitude boundaries are between -1 and 1. Let's say the amplitude on the wave of the track that is being corrected ends at -0.5 and then the punch-in amplitude starts at +0.25. There will be a clip (pop) sound introduced to the mix that needs to be corrected. So I just don't see the value in using this method over others. Not saying it's better or worse...this seems to be inherent in all digital sequencers that support punch-in.