MOTU 828MKII and Sonar 4

[mbrowne]

Hey Guys,

I am trying to get my MOTU 828 MKII up and running and when I install the drivers and look at the driver list in sonar all input and outputs do not appear. What am I doing wrong? I thought I should see an item for each input from the MOTU. Right now all I see are the following...

MOTU MIX 1
MOTU ANALOG 1/2
MOTU ANALOG 3/4
MOTU ANALOG 5/6
MOTU ANALOG 7/8
MOTU MIC-Guitar
MOTU SPDIF

There is a left, right and stereo for each track listed.
I assumed that I should see
ANALOG 1
ANALOG 2
ANALOG 3...
MIC-Guitar 1
MIC Guitar 2
etc....

Am I wrong assuming this?

Thanks for any help you can provide. I appreciate it.

-MattB

[DavidK]

Am I wrong assuming this?

I think so/

Analog 1=left
analog2= right
analog stereo = both

[Michael Rogers]

Yes you will see 1/2 1 being left and 2 being right and 1/2 stereo being both as a stereo into Sonar. Mike

[mbrowne]

So I have to run 2 mics in front in order to be able to pan left or right? That doesnt seem right.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

-Matt

[sile2001]

Edit 2: Wow...I'm getting rusty. I forgot that you can't trust the driver list screen in Sonar. It will only show the list of the stereo pairs. When you actually go to select the input source on a channel, it should show you all the broken out options that I mentioned below.

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Edit: Sorry, I just went back and looked at your first post and you are definitely missing some input sources. Which drivers did you install for the Motu?

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What Michael was saying is basically that the audio streams are presented to Sonar in a couple of different ways.

Channels generally come into the software in pairs. While technically, the inputs operate independently, just to keep things organized they are joined into pairs. Since you already mentioned them, I'll use the mic inputs in front for an example. The Motu presents those inputs both as two separate mono streams, and also as one stereo stream. You might see them listed like this:

Mic-Guitar1/2 Left
Mic-Guitar1/2 Right
Mic-Guitar1/2 Stereo

If you select Mic-Guitar1/2 Left as the input source, you will get a mono track from Mic-Guitar input 1. If you select Mic-Guitar1/2 Right, you will get a mono track from Mic-Guitar input 2. If you select Mic-Guitar1/2 Stereo, you will get a stereo track with the left channel being Mic-Guitar input 1 and the right channel being Mic-Guitar input 2.

Did that make sense?

[mbrowne]

Yes that makes sense, although I figured I should be able to get a stereo recording on each input...I am new so I don't know alot. I used to use a Edirol UA-25 and each input would give me a stereo recording so I was able to pan left and right. I never had to use 2 mics for each instrument. With the MOTU it sounds like I need to run 2 mics in front of my guitar cab one on mic1 and one on mic2, or use a splitter cable in order to get the type of recording I want......dammit.

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by mbrowne

Yes that makes sense, although I figured I should be able to get a stereo recording on each input...I am new so I don't know alot. I used to use a Edirol UA-25 and each input would give me a stereo recording so I was able to pan left and right. I never had to use 2 mics for each instrument. With the MOTU it sounds like I need to run 2 mics in front of my guitar cab one on mic1 and one on mic2, or use a splitter cable in order to get the type of recording I want......dammit.

Well that would be correct, but why on earth would you want to record a mono source in stereo??

And using a splitter cable - although it will give you a stereo track - will give you the exact same data on the left track as the right track. Again, there is no logical reason to do this.

Simply record in mono and pan the recorded track wherever you want in the stereo field.

You need to remember that the OUTPUT from Sonar will ultimately be a 2-track stereo file (ignoring surround for the moment). The input can be comprised of all mono tracks - however, each mono track can be panned within the stereo field of the output. Which, ultimately, is what you should be concerned about, no?

The only time you should want to record in stereo will be to capture a wide instrument (piano, drums, etc). For example, you might want to record a drum kit in stereo. However, since you can accomplish the same thing by mono micing each drum and panning each input accordingly, the only time you really need to do this is if you are limited in available mics, or maybe for overheads in order to capture room ambience.

[sile2001]

Originally Posted by mbrowne

Yes that makes sense, although I figured I should be able to get a stereo recording on each input...I am new so I don't know alot. I used to use a Edirol UA-25 and each input would give me a stereo recording so I was able to pan left and right. I never had to use 2 mics for each instrument. With the MOTU it sounds like I need to run 2 mics in front of my guitar cab one on mic1 and one on mic2, or use a splitter cable in order to get the type of recording I want......dammit.

No, you don't have to do that. All you have to do is create a new track in Sonar and make sure it is set to a stereo track, not mono. Then select one of the mono inputs (like Mic-Guitar1/2 Left). Sonar will record the same audio data on both the left and right channels.

However, dachay2tnr brings up an excellent point. There is no reason to record a stereo track where both channels have the exact same audio. Even if you record it as a mono track, Sonar will still let you pan it wherever you want in the left/right stereo field. You don't have to have a stereo input track to do that.

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by sile2001

No, you don't have to do that. All you have to do is create a new track in Sonar and make sure it is set to a stereo track, not mono. Then select one of the mono inputs (like Mic-Guitar1/2 Left). Sonar will record the same audio data on both the left and right channels.

That's not correct, sile2001. If you record to a stereo track, but only have a mic plugged into a single input, you will get a recording on just one side of the track, and a blank (i.e., silence) on the other side.

To get stereo you have to have something connected to both inputs - either via two mics or a splitter cable as mbrowne already surmised.

[sile2001]

Originally Posted by dachay2tnr

That's not correct, sile2001. If you record to a stereo track, but only have a mic plugged into a single input, you will get a recording on just one side of the track, and a blank (i.e., silence) on the other side.

To get stereo you have to have something connected to both inputs - either via two mics or a splitter cable as mbrowne already surmised.

Then someone needs to let Motu/Sonar know that they have stuff out there that works two different ways. I just tried it on my setup and it works as I described.

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by sile2001

Then someone needs to let Motu/Sonar know that they have stuff out there that works two different ways. I just tried it on my setup and it works as I described.

Actually I don't have a MOTU sound card, but still I'm surprised. Since I've never encountered any other sound card that works that way.

But just so I understand correctly, you plug a mic (via preamp) into Input #1. Nothing else is plugged into the MOTU. You select MOTU 1/2 Stereo as your input selection in Sonar. And when you record, you get a stereo recording with a signal on both the Left and the Right Track?

Quite unusual. Most better sound cards have mono inputs. With this configuration I would have assumed that the # 1/2 inputs operate as a stereo pair, where 1 represents the Left Input and 2 represents the Right input. Not quite sure how #1 ends up feeding both the left and right.

Live and learn.

[sile2001]

No, that's not what I said. I said create a Stereo track in Sonar, but then assign it a mono input, not a stereo input.

i.e. mic plugged into input #1. Create new channel in Sonar and set it to a stereo channel (if not already set by default). Select MOTU 1/2 Left as input selection. The resulting track will have the signal from input #1 on both the left and right channels.

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Addition:

The MOTU 828mkII presents inputs as both individual mono inputs and also as stereo pairs. For instance, the 1/2 inputs would be presented as 3 channels:

MOTU 1/2 Left
MOTU 1/2 Right
MOTU 1/2 Stereo

Left is input 1 (mono), right is input 2 (mono), and Stereo is obviously a stereo stream with input 1 on the left and input 2 on the right.

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by sile2001

No, that's not what I said. I said create a Stereo track in Sonar, but then assign it a mono input, not a stereo input.

i.e. mic plugged into input #1. Create new channel in Sonar and set it to a stereo channel (if not already set by default). Select MOTU 1/2 Left as input selection. The resulting track will have the signal from input #1 on both the left and right channels.

OK, my Delta might work like that also - however, as I already noted, why on earth would you want to do that, since it simply creates the same signal on both sides of the stereo track and consumes twice the storage space.

Originally Posted by sile2001

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Addition:

The MOTU 828mkII presents inputs as both individual mono inputs and also as stereo pairs. For instance, the 1/2 inputs would be presented as 3 channels:

MOTU 1/2 Left
MOTU 1/2 Right
MOTU 1/2 Stereo

Left is input 1 (mono), right is input 2 (mono), and Stereo is obviously a stereo stream with input 1 on the left and input 2 on the right.

Yeah, that's how they all work - even the cheapie onboard ones (although they usually only have a single, stereo connection). However, to get true stereo recording you need to have a (different) signal going into both the left and right (#1 and 2) inputs.

[sile2001]

Well...I suppose if for some reason you wanted to have one side stay normal and add effects to the other side in post-processing, but then there's no reason the original mono track couldn't just be duplicated with a copy/paste.

[mbrowne]

The reason I would like it is for panning. I would like to be able to push guitar left and right in one of my tunes. Sort of as a leslie effect. I will try some more things, although it seems like I will just have to cope.

Thanks for your input guys.

-mbrowne

[dachay2tnr]

Originally Posted by mbrowne

The reason I would like it is for panning. I would like to be able to push guitar left and right in one of my tunes. Sort of as a leslie effect. I will try some more things, although it seems like I will just have to cope.

Thanks for your input guys.

-mbrowne

Either I am misunderstanding something or you are.

You shouldn't need a stereo track for that. In fact, a stereo track would actually make this more difficult to do. Consider using a mono track with a panning envelope.

Unless of course you were using two different mics and you wanted to switch back and forth between the different "sounds." However, if it is the same guitar sound recorded throught the same mic, and you just want to toggle between left and right, see above.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by dachay2tnr

Either I am misunderstanding something or you are.

You shouldn't need a stereo track for that. In fact, a stereo track would actually make this more difficult to do. Consider using a mono track with a panning envelope.

I wondered as well. And to add, consider the panning options; Whether a single input or a pair, sent to a 'stereo track the option (generally? perhaps not in all cases) is L gets louder as R fades and vise versa'. With a mono track panning is L/R position -both of course play into the same stereo output field.
To take it even a step further, feed a 'stereo pair' of kit mics to a pair of dual mono tracks -now you have direct control of balance level and width. The upside is easy fine tuning, the down, two eq's or whatever where one would cover a stereo track. (But then came sub-busses to nip that one.
Wayne