recording metal??

[mannaz]

I'm having a helluva time recording heavy metal music...especially the guitars & drums. I record alot of double bass, two rhythm guitars, and harmonized riffs ontop, and I can never seem to get rid of the mud and make everything sound "seperate but together."
I've experimented with tone, compression, noise gates, effects, mic placement, etc...but no dice.
I've always had a good ear, but now I'm starting to wonder!
Are there any tricks, or is it just me?
Please...somebody suggest something before my head explodes!!

[John Sayers]

mannaz - the thing about metal is that it's bright (no pun intended) The drums are always bright and toppey? as is the bass. Don't be afraid to add 3kHZ and higher to the bass to give it that edge and compress it hard - you may even have to take bass off it.

Same with the drums - they are usually welll back in tight reverbs and the playing is intense and busy with lots of fills etc so you can't go adding 10db at 100HZ cos you'll just get mud. EQ out 250 - 350Hz in your drums to get rid of the the mud and add 10KHz to make them bright.

Then you'll have room to put the walls of guitars and the bass and drums will cut through that wall. Multitrack the guitars to give them power. They shouldn't need compression until the overall mix.

Most people say oh anyone can play metal but I reckon it's one of the hardest musical styles to play and to record. The singing is about a fifth or more above where everyone else sings and the harmonies are even higher.

Stick at it - it's worth it

John

[smidgie]

another thing...don't use a lot of distortion on the guitars. If you have too much distortion on them, you'll have zero definition and it sound all washy and stuff. Try cutting some low mid out of the guitars too...between 250hz-600hz and maybe around 800hz or experiment with cutting other frequencies. This will create room for bass and drums and the guitars will sound better. Compress the guitars also. You don't want too much low frequency on the guitars either. Then maybe add a slight boost at around 5khz-6khz. You'd probably want to do atleast 3 overdubs...left, right, and center. That'll make it sound big. but you have to play really tight. Don't put any reverb on the guitars at all, at least no digital reverb...it'll just make it sound cheesy. Natural ambience might work though.

metal out.

[Sabith]

I don't know about the hardest musical styles.... but it deffinatly is tough to record, hard to get deffinition with things.

"Most people say oh anyone can play metal but I reckon it's one of the hardest musical styles to play and to record."

I don't know about hardest to play, but I agree bout the recording part, I find it tough to get really good deffinition with so much distortion from the geetars


" The singing is about a fifth or more above where everyone else sings and the harmonies are even higher. "

A fifth is harmony........ and even higher leaves 6th, 7th's and octave(with the variations)... not much higher to go...

Sabith

[John Sayers]

Sabith - I did say "one of the hardest" , if you look at the guitar playing, drumming, bass, singing etc it is pretty hard to play.

As far as the singing is concerned it requires being able to sing above a G in full chest voice, screaming voice and falsetto continually and that's hard! Why do you think they have voice box nodules problems all the time???

cheers
John

[ttbaron]

Bad mixes from unsigned bands - unbelievable!! Sure, recording Garbage bands like Korn- etc. is easy because every song is exactly the same!!!!!! I guess bands like Creed and Fags 182 is sooo hard because they are soooo talented.....NOT... Hmmmmmmm, let me think - Oh yeah - Pro Tools! Any moron can strum two power chords and sound great with todays technology. It's the music that counts, although a great mix helps in a great way. Now sit back and really think, what is the most creative, energetic, meaningful style of music - METAL!!!! and I mean REAL METAL. Not some drum machine rappin', two chord playin', form fittin', dancin', talentless wanna be. Real musicians play Metal - past present and future. Note the term Musicians - it contains the term MUSIC. When I see that Green Day loser on Guitar Magazine I want to puke.. That loser doesn't even know what a chord is...yet people think he'sgreat because he's on a mag - give me a break. These bands aren't even bands because they simply play one part of a song and just copy it digitally wherever it is needed. I haven't heard a guitar solo on MTV or radio from a new band in years - it all sucks ass!!!! For those of you who think Metal is easy to record, go listen to Dream Theater, Fates Warning or any good progressive metal band out today. I'm currently recording music for my new CD. It's very original Progressive style metal and recording is hard as hell. Dynamics, doubling, effects.. are just a few of the issues, not just LOUD.

[mannaz]

Thanks alot! I guess I've been doing pretty much the opposite of what you guys are saying to do. I'll deffinitely try turning my gain down!
Now as far as metal goes...
I completely agree with ttbaron on the korn crap, etc.
True, Dream Theatre is pretty cool, but what I really dig is the Thrash/Classic metal mixtures like Arch Enemy, In Flames, Shadows Fall, etc. They really take the best from metallica and iron maiden type music and combine them in a very tasteful, non cheesey fashion. This dude named Fredric Nordstrum records most of these guys' music and I personally think he's brilliant! I'd give my left nad to record like him!

[ttbaron]

OK, maybe I was a little too harsh. I'm just in a position where I'm in a very talented band with huge potential, yet labels have turned us down. Every review we received was very positive and people all over the world have expressed disbelief as to why we aren't signed. Anyway, we went through a long, problem filled venture recording our new full length CD and since it received no label bites, I decided to re-record most of it. I got hold of a good recording system and have been doing it all at home. I never recorded anything seriously before and have learned so much in the last few months. I plan a large scale independent release and a huge mix for the disc. I want it to rival any major label release. I really get down on national acts because of the overall lack of talent these bands posess and I hate that they get the best recordings. I know a lot of you probably get some great sounding recordings, but there's always a difference when compared to majors. It's real depressing seeing that even smaller metal labels are now looking for a quick buck and no one will invest in something that will last for many years. I do plan on posting the address for our site when I have some MP3's available. I'll check out the examples mentioned. Anyway, I'll stop blabbing - it's probably a topic for another board.

[John Sayers]

Don'y worry ttbaron - my son is into metal (started with Maiden ) and he quietly says to me - don't worry Dad Metal will come around again!!

Cheers
John

[Sabith]

I admit........ I'm a bit byast........
I don't like metal that much... I just don't like screaming vocals, at all.

Minus if your name is Maynard James Keenan(Lead singer from Tool and A Perfect Circle)...... I really like his style/voice in both those groups, so F***in great.

Also, all the instruments are classical/celtic
(violin, trombone, bagpipes, and I'm a bass singer(opera type sound))and I refuse to scream cause itz terrible for your voice. So I wouldn't really know how hard metal is, it just usually doesn't sound that hard, but I am hearing Korn and shit like that usually.... so that could be the prob

I retract my implication that metal isn't too hard, =)

Sabith

[Tim Brown]

Hi ttbaron,

Man-you don't even need a label these days!
Do it yourself!
All the labels are are banks anyway.

Just record it yourself, and sell it on the net!
Maybe buy a quarter page ad in one of the major mags.
Wanna find a killer artist to do your cover?
go to Elfwood.

http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/elfwood.html

Some of these people are AWESOME artists.

This is what we have in the works...
In case you're wondering, I'm a drummer in a Powermetal Band-we're kind of on a break right now-My Bass player is like DeMaio from Manowar, and we're having a hard time finding and keeping guitarists who can handle playing "second fiddle" to what is essentially a lead guitarist playing bass.
No "one note wonders" here! hahaha

Our style is similar to Manowar and Virgin Steele, but you'll also hear elements of bands like Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Asia, Yes, Queen, and other bands that we listen to.

Tim

[Cooperman]

As I've said MANY times in posts, to get a good metal guitar sound you need a not too distorted dry guitar sound and track at least 4 but preferably 6 rhythm tracks.

Because metal riffs usually have subtle nuances with lots of hammer-ons, pull offs and muting the real trick is to be able to record your 6 rhythm tracks without it turning to mud - you have to have the skill to be able to play the same riffs EXACTLY the same!

You can find one of my efforts here....

http://listeningroom.lycos.com/fan/b...rman/Band.html

[John Sayers]

Point well made Coop!!

hmmmmm....now if I could only get you to sing it an octave higher we'd be in business.

cheers
John