seeking mastering advice for demo recording

[jukeboxbreakdow]

hello people

hoping that you guys can help save me and my band from spending more money getting others to master tracks for demos !

Maybe the best start is that we offer a listen to our current mix

http://www.jukeboxbreakdown.com/MATTEROFFATEMIX1.mp3

I know mp3 is lossy but the wav is a whopper, if can get volume sorted out and polish it up a bit we'd be happy with this as a demo

just dont have the knowledge to know what we should be doing

We have access to Izotope ozone2

if anyone has any advice on the best procedure to master this particular mix that would be great

I think we would be happy even if we could get the volume way up

looking forward to suggestions

cheers
paul

[Tonedrone]

First of all with out a better sample of the recording, I couldn't say whats wrong or right with it. It maybe better to post a smaller segment of the song at a higher bit rate. Secondly.... well there is no secondly I just need to hear a better version. Email me if you like. Tonedrone@comcast.net

[jukeboxbreakdow]

fair play!

behold...

http://www.jukeboxbreakdown.com/clip1.wav
http://www.jukeboxbreakdown.com/clip2.wav

thanks in advance for your time

[earthboundrec]

There's issues with the mix that I would fix before mastering it, but if it's just for a demo that's not going to be distributed or anything, it's not that big of deal.

[jukeboxbreakdow]

what were your thoughts on that ?

I'd like to do as much as possible with the mix before we attempt to master it, its great to get someone elses ideas

since posting I have made a few changes, Ive altered the panning on the guitars, brought them a little more central as that was throwing me.

I've also eq'd the guitar left as it was a bit transparent and tinny and made a few volume changes

if there are other things youve noted we'd appreciate your opinion !

cheers

[Blue Bear Sound]

The clips weren't very long, but you've got a long way to go with mixing them before you should spend any money mastering them. If you DO send them to a mastering house, the engineer is likely just going to stop and say you need to re-mix them anyways....

I'm not trying to be rude - I understand that you're calling these demos, but that's exactly what they sound like - as if you threw a mic in the middle of a bad-sounding room and hit record.... actually, had you done that, you might of gotten a better mix balance than you did with your actual mix!

From what I heard on your short clips, there's no concept of balance & arrangement, and there's no definition to anything. It really sounded all mashed together in one big sonic soup.

I suggest you pick up a couple of reference books on the process of mixing, to become familiar with everything involved. I also wrote an article that covers some of the basics that you may find helpful to get you off the ground --> Mixing 101

[jukeboxbreakdow]

fair play mr bear

but we did say "hoping that you guys can help save me and my band from spending more money"

we want to learn to do this on our own, we dont want to send it off to a mastering suite, if we were planning to, we would pay for some proper studio time to make sure we got good recordings

none of us are trained or have any experience of recording mixing or mastering, we've been doing this all on our own and trying to pick things up as we go along and try to get better each time we do it

so no we don't think that was rude but everyone starts somewhere right and I think we're making ok progress !

we will try to read your tutorial soon

thanks

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by jukeboxbreakdow

fair play mr bear

but we did say "hoping that you guys can help save me and my band from spending more money"

I know - that's why I commented! You SHOULDN'T be spending money on mastering at this point. Nor was I suggesting you need more gear... what you DO need to do is to focus on tracking and mixing techniques first!

[jukeboxbreakdow]

yeah, we're learning as fast as we can.

maybe you could give us some constructive advice as reading what you've said is pretty vague and not particularly encouraging


we got to start somewhere and theres a hell of a lot to take in, its going to be a long road but at least are actively seeking tips and advice and WANT to learn!

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by jukeboxbreakdow

maybe you could give us some constructive advice....

I already did.... read my mixing article!

[jukeboxbreakdow]

the article is really good

thanks

[Robert D]

Hey, how was this recorded? It sounds like you probably played together, micing everything in the same untreated room with no seperation and lots of bleed, and probably some phase issues. My guess is that it's not just not ready to master, but that it's not ready to mix. Sorry your'e not getting much love in here, but it's really not mean spirited. These days, even a demo is expected to sound pretty good, and having a bad demo is the death kiss, probably worse than having no demo.
My best advice, for whatever it's worth, is to go back to tracking and stay with it till every track stands on it's own. It should take a lot of time, probably several overdubs, and probably some work on the space you're recording in to knock down reflections. If you want to stick with these tracks, it's probably better to pay someone to mix it than to pay someone to try to master it.

Good luck, and have fun.
-RD

[jukeboxbreakdow]

no man its cool

didn't mean to sound so defensive before, its just really frustrating being at the bottom of the ladder.

obviously the more that we're advised, the more we learn, the more we start doing things the right way. Its all good, its exciting for us to try to learn how to do this at a reasonable level because we just cant afford studio time

our recording technique is far from ideal, obviously with your trained ears you can tell too. but we try to make the best of what we have

vox - rode NT1 via an ART Tube MP
Guitars - POD XT pro via soundcard (Tascam US122) straight in to CEP
and, well this is where you laugh
bass - We dont have a bass player at the moment, or a bass, so bass sounds come from Roland Juno D
And as we don't have good enough mics or noisegates to get drums recorded well, the drum sounds are courtesy of our drummer whacking of the beats on the Juno D too

[Alexbt]

Bass or no bass, there needs to be more of it.

Listening through headphones as usual, but you guys know me. No monitors yet.

There are some mega panning issues. In the first clip, the hard left distortion guitar sounds very out of place, and is not in balance. I would probably move it somewhere else or try to find a better balance.

In the second clip, I think it suddenly moves more towards center or is doubled.

I'll say you're certainly off to a good start, but you can't expect excellent results fast. As for mastering, I don't believe it's something you can learn without many years of hands on experience.

My question: What are you mixing through? Speakers? Monitors? Headphones? Earbuds?

Again, I hear barely anything from your keybass.

[jukeboxbreakdow]

really no bass ?thats odd

we're monitoring through some alesis actives, I know thew overcompensate with bass so I've got some half decent closed headphones for a second reference too, but thought the bass was seeming ok. I'll take another look.

yeah I can sense a good 5 years minimum of learning this stuff before I get anywhere close to good results.

I've addressed the panning issues ( a little) since that mp3 as it was pretty whack.

We've managed to get a cool guy with a good knowledge of this stuff to help us out now too, and at no cost ! so pretty awesome.

[rivv3t]

I'm in a bit of a hurry but try my last bit of advice in the Bass Boost EQ etc post.

Hook up an EQ/boost (software) to your soundcard and mix down that way.. however you like it. Everybody's is different anyway and the real deal will come out nice and flat with lots of EQ play for any kind of audio device on all bands. Do a final EQ when it's mixed and learn a little about compression.. careful, it can be dangerous to your mix. Then use a limiter to get your levels as hot as you can without distorting the output. (Check out Steinberg's Mastering Edition and the DSP effects series. They're both absolute whopper packages for not too much money.)

Some people do the final EQ first, some go right into the compression. What you do with compression depends on how good your mixdown turned out. It's supposed to add finishing touches to your sound and make it playable on a variety of audio devices but you can fuck up the whole mix by not being careful.

Don't forget to use real flat-ref monitors even if they're the lowest end you can possibly afford. The bass may come out a little topheavy at the worst but if you set that original card EQ to music you like to listen to it will still come out pretty darned close. Bass guitar usually has some type of compression on it to begin with because the peak dynamics are so hard to handle. Again on the monitors, it's good to have a sub. Tascam has an extremely cheap sub/sattelite combo for about $100 and they're really nothing to sneeze at, especially if you can't afford a pair of Mackies or whatever. Most musicians I've ever know are butt-ass broke at some point (usually more than one) and just want to get their sound out.

Check your panning too beforehand when mixing...a lot of times you can get a good thick sound without overcrowding by simple right or left spacing with delays. Wide delays are also a good substitute for reverb if you notice they're making your sound muddy. If you listen really closely to the radio you'll notice it's basically compression and delay that give it that fat wall of sound sort of warp.

I like to use a little high-freq tingle (spectralizers, aural activators, sonic maximizer etc.) when I EQ the mix but it's artificial axle grease and some people are real turds about that sort of thing. Digital audio is "artificial" anyway so who gives a ffft? So are electric instruments and amplifiers and delays and all that stuff for that matter if you want to get technical about it. Spectralizers give your mix a nice FM stereo sort of gloss.

But you're talking about a simple demo so...try my way and see what you get. I'm really impressed with what such a small amount of money and a bit more time has done for my recordings.

[earthboundrec]

Originally Posted by rivv3t

I'm in a bit of a hurry but try my last bit of advice in the Bass Boost EQ etc post.

Hook up an EQ/boost (software) to your soundcard and mix down that way.. however you like it. Everybody's is different anyway and the real deal will come out nice and flat with lots of EQ play for any kind of audio device on all bands. Do a final EQ when it's mixed and learn a little about compression.. careful, it can be dangerous to your mix. Then use a limiter to get your levels as hot as you can without distorting the output. (Check out Steinberg's Mastering Edition and the DSP effects series. They're both absolute whopper packages for not too much money.)

Some people do the final EQ first, some go right into the compression. What you do with compression depends on how good your mixdown turned out. It's supposed to add finishing touches to your sound and make it playable on a variety of audio devices but you can fuck up the whole mix by not being careful.

Don't forget to use real flat-ref monitors even if they're the lowest end you can possibly afford. The bass may come out a little topheavy at the worst but if you set that original card EQ to music you like to listen to it will still come out pretty darned close. Bass guitar usually has some type of compression on it to begin with because the peak dynamics are so hard to handle. Again on the monitors, it's good to have a sub. Tascam has an extremely cheap sub/sattelite combo for about $100 and they're really nothing to sneeze at, especially if you can't afford a pair of Mackies or whatever. Most musicians I've ever know are butt-ass broke at some point (usually more than one) and just want to get their sound out.

Check your panning too beforehand when mixing...a lot of times you can get a good thick sound without overcrowding by simple right or left spacing with delays. Wide delays are also a good substitute for reverb if you notice they're making your sound muddy. If you listen really closely to the radio you'll notice it's basically compression and delay that give it that fat wall of sound sort of warp.

I like to use a little high-freq tingle (spectralizers, aural activators, sonic maximizer etc.) when I EQ the mix but it's artificial axle grease and some people are real turds about that sort of thing. Digital audio is "artificial" anyway so who gives a ffft? So are electric instruments and amplifiers and delays and all that stuff for that matter if you want to get technical about it. Spectralizers give your mix a nice FM stereo sort of gloss.

But you're talking about a simple demo so...try my way and see what you get. I'm really impressed with what such a small amount of money and a bit more time has done for my recordings.

So instead of getting a nice balanced mix by carefully listening to how each track works with one another, you'd rather slap an eq on the mains and hard limit the shit out of it? Oh wait, and then apply a sonic maximizer? Ouch..

jukebox, don't go near these suggestions!

[mshilarious]

Well, I've heard a lot worse.

The major problem is the variability in the performance, especially vocals, but also in places the bass. There is also a general lack of energy.

I think I would want to retrack many of the vocals aiming for consistency, and in places, pitch. The bass is gonna need the same, or a lot of compression.

The guitars are kind of flat (tone, not pitch). Not my favorite patch, but it could be workable with a contrasting part in places.

If I wanted to process the existing tracks into something serviceable, I'd stereo-ize the guitars, compress the crap of the bass, and tune and compress the vocals, verb the whole mess and squash it But I didn't just say any those things

Oh yeah, lose the long guitar fade.

[guitar junkie]

Work on the tracking the best you can and make sure that the group knows the songs really well before you ever hit record. Try and learn the feel of each track and get a good proper idea of sound and also how that fits into what you want in the end. Panning reverb compression all have places in the mix but its more than that its about making things work for you before you ever hit record. The best thing you can do is get a great sound before recording the tracks in the first place. Also as for your room spend a little time reading up on stuff in the studio building forum and see if you can tame down your room a little bit. good luck and i hope things work out well for you and your recordings.Oh and another tip for you... Go and check out the guitar forum on here and read about getting a distorted guitar sound just do some searches.

good luck with it, see you on the flip side

[rivv3t]

Originally Posted by earthboundrec

So instead of getting a nice balanced mix by carefully listening to how each track works with one another, you'd rather slap an eq on the mains and hard limit the shit out of it? Oh wait, and then apply a sonic maximizer? Ouch..

jukebox, don't go near these suggestions!

Every pro CD I've heard sounds tinny and FLAT without EQ and bass boost. NOT "nice", "careful" and "balanced". It sounds like shit. You essentially "slap an EQ on the mains" when you master the thing anyway. And then you add gloss, be it a maximizer or whatever you might prefer and then "hard limit the shit out of it".

Whatever, dude. It's a shortcut and it works. Like magic. If it didn't I wouldn't get the same pull out of the mix when I run it through winamp or some other ingenious little consumer toy with all their EQ mischief. It's tight, crystal clear with plenty of play EQwise. Competitive even. Believe what you want.

He's talking about a demo. Not a major label release.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by rivv3t

Every pro CD I've heard sounds tinny and FLAT without EQ and bass boost. NOT "nice", "careful" and "balanced". It sounds like shit.

If every pro CD sounds like crap on your box, then either your monitoring is suspect, or you have unusual listening preferences.

[rivv3t]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

If every pro CD sounds like crap on your box, then either your monitoring is suspect, or you have unusual listening preferences.

WHaT?


To ME...it sounds like crap. It sounds OKAYYY...but I like to use EQ and bass boost. SO DO MOST OTHER PEOPLE. (That's why they call it "FLAT". I don't like flat music. I like it how I like it. So does everyone else. That's what EQs and boosts are for.)


Heh....yoooooooou are the suspect, man. Fuckers just like to sit around stroking your chins and criticize people.

[metalhead28]

mshilarious, I have already tried to go head to head with this guy (rivv3t) in another thread and his inability to reason through the simplest of situations is staggering. Save yourself the headache and ignore him!

[Alexbt]

In other words, I think he's saying he wants super high bass, and crashing highs.
The mids get no lovin on his stereo...

[Cloneboy Studio]

Originally Posted by rivv3t

Heh....yoooooooou are the suspect, man. Fuckers just like to sit around stroking your chins and criticize people.

Nah, it's just that your advice is uninformed. It's a "quick fix" but anyone with decent listening skills and a modicum of okay plugins can use regular solid mixing technique and end up with a far superior project.

Also, you are forgetting that the aim of a good recording is to sound good on a wide variety of systems and settings. If you tweak out the low end and high end in the mix how bad do you think it will sound on the "smile" settings on a stereo? That's half the argument for NOT doing it your way right there... at least the user can choose how to hear the sound with a balanced mix. In your scenario YOU'VE made the decision for the listener.....

Technically the "added high end" of an exciter is distortion. I don't know about you but I try to minimize distortion in my audio. But then again what do I know? I only do this for a living.