My recording woes with guitar. (Now with sound clips!)

[jndietz]

Well, I've been playing around with recording stuff for about three months now. But, what seems to bring me down all the time is the quality of my recordings. I'll record something and when I'm editing it in Audition, it just sounds muddy, hollow, dead, or buried. I can't stand it. I listen to "professionally" recorded tracks from big-name bands—such as Chevelle, Rage Against the Machine, and Incubus—and I can't get my guitar/bass to sound like any of their stuff. It keeps pissing me off. I'll sit here for a few hours playing and recording and end up with nothing because it sounds like complete crap.

And then after reading through some stuff on here, I realize that its probably my gear.

Behringer UB802
Nady Starpower Mics
No monitors, just 5.1 Altec Lansing computer speakers...

This is just running from the headphone jack into the line-in on my computer. I run it through the headphone jack because honestly I can't think of any other way to do it. I'm positive that I probably have it set up wrong... There's a few things on this mixer that I don't know WTF to do with. I know my gear is lame, and I've been thinking of getting some Shure SM57s.

I've got a Behringer 3000BXT head and a Behringer BA410 cab for my bass, and really that thing rocks. However, for my guitar, I'm playing through a Crate practice amp, a 15W 10" practice amp. I'm sure that gear in that respect will affect results in recording as well. And I've recorded my acoustic with these things, usually I can get it sound great. Now that I think about it, usually clean guitar sounds good... distorted sounds like a bowl of ass.

Thoughts, opinions, please I'll post some stuff recorded with my gear here in a few minutes...

UPDATE:

Here's some crap I've made thus far...

Diddy 01
RATM
Untitled

[reshp1]

Record the Main outs of the mixer into the "line in" of your computer. A SM57 will probably be an improvement as well. How are you mic'ing the speaker. Keep in mind that the pro's have a wall of exotic tube amps, perfectly setup guitars, a closet full of mics, the best preamps, etc, etc and try not to get too discouraged if you can't get that sound with what you have. The key is to do the best with what you got.

[jndietz]

Originally Posted by reshp1

Record the Main outs of the mixer into the "line in" of your computer. A SM57 will probably be an improvement as well. How are you mic'ing the speaker. Keep in mind that the pro's have a wall of exotic tube amps, perfectly setup guitars, a closet full of mics, the best preamps, etc, etc and try not to get too discouraged if you can't get that sound with what you have. The key is to do the best with what you got.

Well, on the mixer there is a "MAIN OUT" and there's left and right channels seperate. And the line-in is a stereo input... but this is set up for seperate channels? I'll probably have to invest in a cable that splits into left and right, eh?

Another thing I have issues with... I don't know exactly HOW to mic the amp up. Right now, it's about 12" away from the middle of the cone on the Crate. And when I record my bass amp, its usually about 18" away from the very middle of the cab (right where the tweeter is). This is only using one mic. I don't have the other mic plugged in at the moment to catch the sound of the room or anything, I'm going to experiment with that in a bit (and I never have actually tried that, I just read about it).

[jamking]

Originally Posted by jndietz

Yeah, thats another thing I have issues with... I don't know exactly HOW to mic the amp up. Right now, it's about 12" away from the middle of the cone on the Crate. And when I record my bass amp, its usually about 18" away from the very middle of the cab (right where the tweeter is). This is only using one mic. I don't have the other mic plugged in at the moment to catch the sound of the room or anything, I'm going to experiment with that in a bit (and I never have actually tried that, I just read about it).

I'm not positive but not only should you move the mic closer but don't put it in the direct path of cone. Offset it to the side more.

[reshp1]

Yeah, if you want to record both L/R then you'll need a Y cable. They're pretty common (Radio Shack). If you are just recording one track at a time, you can always just pan it hard left and just plug the left channel into the line in.

Generally, most distorted guitar is mic'ed with the mic right on the grill of the cab. The center of the cone puts out most of the high frequencies, the outer regions output more of the body, so keep that in mind while moving the mic around. Also mics sound different when picking up sounds at differnent angles, so try to play around with that as well.
Usually distorted sounds just don't sound quite right until you double them. Play the same part twice and record and pan the two takes L/R about 30%. The subtle differences between each take should fill out the sound a lot.

[David Katauskas]

1) I use the RCA Tape Out jack on the UB802 that feed the male 1/8" plug that goes directly into my soundcard. I'd suggest that.

2) I can't speak about your mics, but my guess is that they may be part of the issue. Possibly an SM57 or an Sennheiser e609s to brighten your sound.

3) That is one of the better sounds I've heard from a solid state amp (RATM). However, if you double track panning each left and right, you will get a better sound. Also, turn the distortion down a bit...yes...you heard me correctly.

Just an FYI, I went thru most of what you are going thru now. Everything above is what I've learned over time via trial/error and from the folks on this board.

[reshp1]

Originally Posted by David Katauskas

1) I use the RCA Tape Out jack on the UB802 that feed the male 1/8" plug that goes directly into my soundcard. I'd suggest that.

Oooo, good point, the line in on the computer expects a consumer -10dB level, not the +4dB the mixer mains put out. Sorry, forgot about that part, do what David K said and get a RCA L/R to 1/8" stereo cable instead (also available at Radio Shack).

[Kansnatchas]

You might want to look at getting an audio interface so you don't have to deal with the line in on your computer. An audio interface will also let you do individual tracks (assuming it has the capability, not all do). If you can't spend the money on an interface check out the sampling rate and bit depth of both your computer's sound card and Audition, try to get the best you can from both.

[scrubs]

I listened to "Diddy 01" and thought it sounded pretty decent, all things considered. You are getting some clipping/distortion, probably at your soundcard input, so record at a little lower gain to avoid that. Understand that those bands are recording in professional studios, using professional gear (behringer is not, by any standard, professional gear -- even though it says 'pro' on it), multi-thousand dollar microphones and preamps, and have professional engineers at their disposal. It's not that you cannot get a good result at home, but you can't expect miracles either. If you are unhappy with your sound, it's time to upgrade. Better yet, buy a few hours in a pro studio and see what you can learn about the recording process while there.

[jndietz]

Originally Posted by scrubs

I listened to "Diddy 01" and thought it sounded pretty decent, all things considered. You are getting some clipping/distortion, probably at your soundcard input, so record at a little lower gain to avoid that. Understand that those bands are recording in professional studios, using professional gear (behringer is not, by any standard, professional gear -- even though it says 'pro' on it), multi-thousand dollar microphones and preamps, and have professional engineers at their disposal. It's not that you cannot get a good result at home, but you can't expect miracles either. If you are unhappy with your sound, it's time to upgrade. Better yet, buy a few hours in a pro studio and see what you can learn about the recording process while there.

I was thinking about investing in an M-Box. I've been taking recording a lot more seriously as of late and I think it would be a good investment... what do you think?

[scrubs]

Originally Posted by jndietz

I was thinking about investing in an M-Box. I've been taking recording a lot more seriously as of late and I think it would be a good investment... what do you think?

The original M-box has come down in price since the introduction of the M-Box 2. By most accounts it has decent (although still not "pro" quality) preamps. It would certainly be an improvement over just going into your stock soundcard.

When I talk about "pro" quality preamps, I'm referring to stuff that generally starts around $1000 per channel and goes up considerably in price from there. Now, most of this pro stuff is just not feasible for home recordists (I certainly don't own any pres that are that expensive). Also, stellar pres are going to be of little use if you are still using the Nady mics and the behri amp (and probably recording in a room that is not ideal, acoustically).

At some point, you'll have to decide how serious you are about recording and what you are willing to spend to get the results you want. I certainly believe that very good recordings can be made at home with less than "pro" equipment, but it also takes a lot of skill and practice learning how to record and mix. That's one of the reasons that this forum is such a great resource. Lots of tips to be found.

[reshp1]

Originally Posted by jndietz

I was thinking about investing in an M-Box. I've been taking recording a lot more seriously as of late and I think it would be a good investment... what do you think?

The new M-Box 2 is out, which lets you record up to 4 tracks at once instead of 2 (I think you'll need a external preamp that outputs SPDIF to take advantage of this), or the old mBox's are being blown out by Guitar Center this month.

[smtcharlie]

The replies above are all really good. When I listen to the three samples, I tend to agree with you. The first and third samples of a more clean guitar sound seem really good to me. That's a great sound for a modest Crate amp, it's very "alive" which is what we are all usually going for.

The distortion sound is much more muddy and just less full or alive. You are probably looking for the distortion to actually sound bigger than the clean sound, and give a song a push in energy...so I can see how this can be frustrating.

I think that acoutic guitar and distorted guitar are the two hardest things to record, by far. Drums aren't exactly easy either, I guess.

But anyway, what kind of distortion pedal are you using? Just the on-board Crate distortion?

Doubling the part and panning them hard left and right will add energy. But you may want to consider a slightly better distortion pedal or better source sound before buying all kinds of pre-amps and microphones. You are getting a good sound for clean electric, so I think that your recording gear is probably not what is letting you down here....

I went through this with recording acoustic guitar. I went through ~4 mic's and 3 pre-amps before coming to the conclusion that I just don't like the sound of my acoustic guitar. It's tough to tell the difference when you are recording yourself (when you are playing, you are thinking about feel and performance rather than technical sound quality).

Good luck, I really like the guitar playing in these samples, by the way.

smtcharlie

[NL5]

Just wanted to say Hey!

[jndietz]

Originally Posted by smtcharlie

The replies above are all really good. When I listen to the three samples, I tend to agree with you. The first and third samples of a more clean guitar sound seem really good to me. That's a great sound for a modest Crate amp, it's very "alive" which is what we are all usually going for.

The distortion sound is much more muddy and just less full or alive. You are probably looking for the distortion to actually sound bigger than the clean sound, and give a song a push in energy...so I can see how this can be frustrating.

I think that acoutic guitar and distorted guitar are the two hardest things to record, by far. Drums aren't exactly easy either, I guess.

But anyway, what kind of distortion pedal are you using? Just the on-board Crate distortion?

Doubling the part and panning them hard left and right will add energy. But you may want to consider a slightly better distortion pedal or better source sound before buying all kinds of pre-amps and microphones. You are getting a good sound for clean electric, so I think that your recording gear is probably not what is letting you down here....

I went through this with recording acoustic guitar. I went through ~4 mic's and 3 pre-amps before coming to the conclusion that I just don't like the sound of my acoustic guitar. It's tough to tell the difference when you are recording yourself (when you are playing, you are thinking about feel and performance rather than technical sound quality).

Good luck, I really like the guitar playing in these samples, by the way.

smtcharlie

I'm using a Digitech Metal Master. I've got the "High" on it turned down to the middle. To my ear it sounds GREAT! But on the recording... man it sounds really crisp and almost annoying. No punch at all! I even tried to EQ out the highs and EQ in the lows! No go! I've been experimenting with advice given here and also with using two mics. One upclose to the cone, and one further off to the side to pick up the body of the cone. Slowly it's coming together...... and I mean SLOWLY lol.

And thank you for commenting on my guitar playing

[jndietz]

Thanks for all the great tips so far guys! Keep those comments and suggestions rolling in... You've really made a big difference thus far and maybe it'll just keep getting better. I think the next thing I'm going to tackle once my distortion problem is figured out is my bass recording problem. I can usually get it to sound good... but that'll be for another thread (actually I might just update this one).

Anyways, keep 'em coming in!

Originally Posted by NL5

Just wanted to say Hey!

Hey NL5

[jndietz]

Here's a rendition of Tuesday's Gone on my acoustic. I doubled up the "lead" track and panned them hard left and hard right. And... I think it sounds alright, actually. But please post if you think it sounds wrong or too bright, too boomy, etc. Thanks guys!


Tuesday's Gone
Some Stupid Seether S**t

I know its slow, and my string bends sound kind of crappy, but I haven't really practiced string bends on this acoustic it hurts my fingers a lot. Also, I suck at using my fingers :P Anyways, let me know.

[Erockrazor]

IMO , i think that the preamps on the behringer mixer isnt helping your recordings much. Maybe if one of your friends have another preamp , you could borrow it and maybe pinpoint if that could be the problem? The mix seems pretty even to me as far as the eq goes. Be aware that im new to this to .. just trying to give my input. Good luck getting the soudn youre looking for.

ps , that diddy song ... AWESOME stuff. Did you write that yourself? it sounds realllly good to me.

[jndietz]

Originally Posted by Erockrazor

IMO , i think that the preamps on the behringer mixer isnt helping your recordings much. Maybe if one of your friends have another preamp , you could borrow it and maybe pinpoint if that could be the problem? The mix seems pretty even to me as far as the eq goes. Be aware that im new to this to .. just trying to give my input. Good luck getting the soudn youre looking for.

ps , that diddy song ... AWESOME stuff. Did you write that yourself? it sounds realllly good to me.

Well, I don't exactly have another pre I can play around with Thanks for your best wishes, and yes, I wrote it myself

[NL5]

I listened to Tuesday's Gone. it really doesn't sound that bad save for one thing - noise. It sounds like you have a bad cable maybe? Try and figure out where all the line noise is coming from.

[smtcharlie]

I didn't listen to the more current song yet, but the last post is a really good point. Can you borrow another amp or distortion pedal to try? If your recording rig is the limiting factor, then it will let you down for all types of distorted sounds. But if you can try a bunch of different distortion sounds, you may be able to narrow in on one you like.

I find recording distorted guitar very difficult. A distortion pedal compresses the sound in a big way, so it sounds flat on the recording.

Maybe you can give the group a suggestion of a band with a great distortion sound to your ears...someone may be able to tell you if you are on the right track with your current distortion pedal.

I don't run a studio, I'm just a home recorder. But I went through this recently. My drum tracks, vocal tracks, and electric guitar tracks sounded fairly good - but my acoustic sounded fairly bad. I thought that my mic's or pre's just weren't flattering for acoustic guitar and bought a bunch of stuff. It turned out that it was my guitar. Which makes sense...if all instruments sound good except acoustic guitar, then it would make sense that the source sound is the problem, not the recording gear.

I use a danelectro Daddy-O distortion, and find it much grittier than your sound. More Black Rebel Motorcylce Club, or Joan Jett type of sound.

[jirc]

Here's a neat little program that may help you with microphone placement and recording techniques - http://www.studiobuddy.com/download.html. It was created by professional recording engineers and is quite the plethra of information.

[Halion]

I think the clean stuff is about as good as it gets from your gear.

I think the distortion needs work. That is about the worst sound I've ever heard! (no offence). I think you've made these mistakes:
- no mids. You need mids, period. Turn that sh*t up (and not just a notch).
- WAY too much bass. Close micing already gives you extra bass. Turn that sh*t down.
- Too much distortion, which results in less growl and more treble. Too much treble that can't really be EQed out. Turn down you're distortion and keep your hand on the treble pot. Mess with it. It will help you I think.
- Close micing. Take your mic a couple of inches further back, and move it an inch or 2 or 3 to one side, still pointing straight at the speaker.

[jndietz]

Originally Posted by jirc

Here's a neat little program that may help you with microphone placement and recording techniques - http://www.studiobuddy.com/download.html. It was created by professional recording engineers and is quite the plethra of information.

i'm gonna check this out, thanks!

[Kronpox]

Dead Eyes See No Future
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=2942385&q=hi

The Sounds of Silence
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=2926323&q=hi

I have a similar problem as the threadstarter. I've got a similar setup (Various quality guitars->Randall RG75 amp->Shure SM57, and another quality mic that I can't remember the name of->Behringer UB1002->soundcard). My distorted guitar sounds always sound too ambient- The best way I describe it is that, wheras in most professional recordings, it sounds as if the guitar is plugged into the speakers, on mine, it very obviously sounds like an amp was mic'd. I've tried all sorts of mic placement, EQ, compression, and other effects, pre- and post-recording.

Any tips?