Bass Button EQ Allowances

[rivv3t]

I'm just getting into the art of mixing and mastering myself. I use a PC, an old Roland workstation and a pair of Tascam VL-S21 flat-ref monitors which are amazingly accurate for their size and price. Also come with a sub.

I try to get my mixes to sound like I would normally play a song on any commercial system (slight V and added bass). To solve the problem of not having my mix rumble when someone presses the bass button on their stereo I chose to analyze identical clips w/bass boost and w/out. The program (Spectrum Analyzer Pro Lab) then calculates EQ cuts and boosts I can process my mix with to get a "flat" effect.

I tried it with two devices: a boom box and a portable cd player. These were the cuts I came up with and they are surprisingly accurate. The mix still sounds good with the cuts as well.

Cheap Boombox DBB (Dynamic Bass Boost)

20/-2
25/-2
31/-2
40/-2
50/-2
63/-2
80/-2
125/-2
160/-2
200/-2
250/0
315/-1
400/0
500/0
630/1
800/1
1000/1
1250/1
1600/1
2000/1
2500/1
3115/1
4000/2
5000/2
6300/2
8000/2
10000/1
12500/2
16000/2
20000/4

Cheap Walkman BBS (Bass Boost System)

20/-2
25/-2
31/-2
40/-3
50/-2
63/-3
80/-2
125/-3
160/-3
200/-2
250/0
315/0
400/0
500/0
630/2
800/1
1000/1
1250/1
1600/2
2000/1
2500/2
3115/2
4000/1
5000/1
6300/1
8000/0
10000/2
12500/2
16000/1
20000/3

(There also appears to be about a decibel and a half of gain increase with the boosts.)

I use Cool Edit's Parametric EQ (20/25Hz) and Grapic EQ (all the rest) to approximate these changes.

I then add a little soft clipping compression with the Steinberg Compressor and use the Loudness Maximizer to get my levels as hot as I can. With a semi-pro setup and this method I have been able to get at least as good of a mixdown/master as say Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd.

I'm pretty ecstatic about the whole thing so I thought I'd share the knowledge. (I've been pulling my hair out forever trying to find a solution on the net. DIY recording definitely has its moments, that's for sure.)

Peace.

[sleep over jack]

so one could possibly infer that a 2db shelf @ 200hz , a 1db shelf @ 1000hz, and a 2db shelf @ ~4000hz would approximate a cheesy Dynamic Bass Boost control... might be good to know if someone wants to check their mixes for problems without tranferring the song over to a consumer audio device.

[rivv3t]

If there is a cheesy bass button ... I will push it.

[rivv3t]

These figures were based on adjustments for my own clips. Your own would have different fixes. Best to get similar software and try your own stuff on it. If it sounds like crap with the fix then you probably need to work on your mix some more.

(This is really just a quick fix and in no way intended as "pro advice". I just don't want my shit to rumble when I hit the damned bass button.)



Another trick I've been messing with is using the default Winamp EQs to do the comparison. If you go to your output options and click on your disk-writer plugin it will spit out a file with whatever EQ settings you have it on.

Only problem for me is that I wouldn't normally use those exact EQ settings to listen to music, especially older bands. I've noticed most of the newer bands sound pretty good through them though, if that's any clue as to how major labels are determining their "flat" settings. I don't know.

Seems like a pretty good guess to me though. I mean how many people just flip through the presets based on what they're listening to? (If they bother at all.) Probably quite a few. EQs are for audiophiles.

Most people just know bass and treble and couldn't give a crap about a 10 band EQ much less a 30 band.

[Atterion]

Originally Posted by rivv3t

I mean how many people just flip through the presets based on what they're listening to? (If they bother at all.) Probably quite a few. EQs are for audiophiles.

Most people just know bass and treble and couldn't give a crap about a 10 band EQ much less a 30 band.

How true. I pop CD's into friends and families stereo's and see that there EQ is set to whatever factory setting it came with, and I can't even believe that seems exceptable to them, and can't understand why they could even settle to not even get the full effect of there music. Some people just don't get it I guess...

[rivv3t]

Since first trying to tackle this problem I've noticed how profoundly much some studios' final masters vary in sound, especially when shutting off all EQs and boost toys to see how they sound "flat". I mean what the hell is "flat" anyway, right? It's all relative to whatever we're comparing it to.

You pop in some independently produced punk rock and you can get away with a 3 band EQ basically. Throw in the new Nine Inch Nails CD or some Tool and you find yourself going to a 10 band to bring out those refinements. Get nostalgic and crank up Sabbath's first album and you're like "Holy shit! This is complete crap! Who in hell mastered this?" I mean it's not terrible really, just EQed way differently and they're all "flat" sounding without an EQ enhancement.

I usually find that what I set my EQ for Led Zeppelin is a pretty good average for most things I listen to with slight variances when I get to electro based music. (A little more bass...near the same treble as bass if not a little more and mids at 0 or even a slight reduction.)

My end conclusion is that it all sounds a little different, everyone has different ears and therefore different EQ preferences and the best I can hope to do is get a good average like I was saying about my settings for Zeppelin.

What I've decided to do, since I've really only got a semi-pro setup to work with, is download one of those $20 EQs with the bass boost I don't even like for my sound card. Set it how I like it and mix that way. The actual result will be somewhat "flat" and people who actually give a rat's ass about EQs can set their own.

My biggest concern is that stupid bass button. It's always a little overdone but nothing I like seems to sound good without it and everything sounds clean and undistorted with it on.

I hope my delvings have helped people at least a little. I'm just going to go for it and hope for the best.

[rivv3t]

This (the cheap soundcard EQ thing) seems to be working like a mojo. File is flat as a pancake post-mix when you shut it (the cheap soundcard EQ) off. Toss your wav in Winamp w/that favorite EQ setting and it's near exact as what you had shot for if not better and PLENTY of room to play around with it because it's flat flat flatter'n shit on your shoe.

The magic fix. Swear to God. I don't care what the pros say or do because I don't have $12,000 to throw down on a "pro" EQ. I do have f$#@ing Cool Edit "Pro" though woohoo. A little fairy dust, some compression and zING.......press play.

lmao.....problem solved. It's called Web EQ, it's $17.95 and it's got a HELLish unprofessional unrefined boost to it. 3 bands 5, 7 or 10...take your pick. Bass boost sucks ass.

I don't know much about "time-tested techniques" but I know what sounds good, K? Nuf said.

Peace. (I know somebody out there knows wtf I'm talking about.)


P.S. If you think simple math does the trick, like simply subtracting from 0db what you added to your EQ, you're dead wrong. I've tried that already.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Just getting a mix balanced properly will get you much farther ahead than trying to second-guess how it's going to translate by applying bizarro EQ curves.........

A good mix translates well everywhere....... if you find you're having to apply strange EQ to your mix, then you haven't done your job with mixing.........

[metalhead28]

What the hell is this "bass button" thingy?

Is this a prominent feature on 15 dollar boom boxes or something?

I think you are only making things harder on yourself if you're trying to anticipate what kind of EQ'ing someone is going to do with your mix. What if somebody doesn't EQ a damn thing? I never EQ anything that I listen to.

[lomky]

Is this "bass boost" like a loudness button that is supposed to counter the Fletcher Munson effect at low volumes?

Here's my @ss talking again.

[rivv3t]

Originally Posted by metalhead28

What the hell is this "bass button" thingy?

Is this a prominent feature on 15 dollar boom boxes or something?

I think you are only making things harder on yourself if you're trying to anticipate what kind of EQ'ing someone is going to do with your mix. What if somebody doesn't EQ a damn thing? I never EQ anything that I listen to.

I do. And so do others. And if they don't there's that treble knob and the bass knob. "Oh, what's this do? Mega Bass? Must be a BASS Button I better PUSH it! Want my shit to PUMP!"


Man... you're making music for people to listen to on cheap ghettoblasters and car stereos (many of which contain a bass boost that starts at 50Hz and whacks itself out up to 12db). For average people. Not for other musicians so they can sit there with their thumbs up their ass while they rattle off geek tech slang to eachother.

The idea is to have room for all of that. Every pro CD does. And the cuts I make allow it to fit next to about everything I listen to without touching a button. You like that flat tinny sound? Crank it up, dude.

Why bother trying to mix "flat" (what the hell is "flat" anyway? it's an oPINION)...or balanced as some of you call it when you can mix it how you like it....with the bass thumpin and the tweeters zipping and sliding off your eardrums like honey...then just subtract that EQ and give people the room to decide for themselves what is a "good" mix...at the push of a button.

I bet half of you guys dissing my post ever so carefully mix and balance your shit only to find the only good "transfer" you get is the no EQ/no Mega Bass setting. And when you DO push the button, what do you get? A bunch of slop. Cheers. The rest of you ... the ones who are actually trained professionals? Way to go, wish I could do that.

This is pretty close. I'm talking DIY producing and whatever I'm doing works. Rather well, in fact. Surprised the hell out of me...in fact....but it works..........and I like my cheap stupid ghetto blaster with the bass button just like everyone else.

[LfO]

Flat isn't so much an opinion as a desired state. Yes, opinions can differ as to whether something IS flat, or what exact sound flat is, but to disregard it as a concept is to throw away a tool of communication.

My impression is that its the mastering engineer's job to take all those bass boost buttons into account. If you're trying to master and mix at the same time, or don't intend to master at all, I suppose its a different situation. But, those with experience seem to feel pretty strongly that these are not the best options.

[rivv3t]

Originally Posted by LfO

Flat isn't so much an opinion as a desired state. Yes, opinions can differ as to whether something IS flat, or what exact sound flat is, but to disregard it as a concept is to throw away a tool of communication.

My impression is that its the mastering engineer's job to take all those bass boost buttons into account. If you're trying to master and mix at the same time, or don't intend to master at all, I suppose its a different situation. But, those with experience seem to feel pretty strongly that these are not the best options.

Again...we're talking opinions. Everything ..and I do mean everything...is a relative concept based on some other preconception. Some people simply have the same point A to start from. You ask someone from a bricks up thug rap label, an indie punk chopshop and a dweedle dee from some megalith bloodsucking corporate label who's had their expertise handed down to them all the way from Alan Lomax and have plaques on the wall to prove it.......what they think about "flat"......"What is....flat?"

Flat.......




...it's flat.









Better get som..................e...................aaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

And a PATCH..........like a patch for my......................flat.















Flat...is what I say is flat. It's also what you say is flat. Your flat is completely different than mine because you're you and I'm me.

MY flat.....is the elimination my boost settings and my EQ. So is YOURSbecauseaaaallllllllll we have to compare our work to....is someone elses.
Industry standard CDs ... marketed to the masses on standard.....audio...devices. And what I said is "flat"...is flat. Whoever you are.

(BTW speaking of industry standard...how many of you have actually sat down and estimated the money saved in corporate airwave DJ editing labor costs by incorporating a "standard" mixing and mastering formula? Billions.)


So...anyway, guys...save your dismal pessemistic rhetoric for someone stupid enough to actually get lost in it. I found a solution.....and it's correct.....because it WORKS. It's precise math. Regardless of whether it's my mix or ....whoever's. I'm using an average based on my default EQ setting. (For whatever I listen to the most and at this point it's usually something that has been mastered well.)



FLAT = take away all boosts or standard device EQ enhancements. That's it.
You can't argue with that.



Nope.




Ya can't!

[LfO]

I agree that everything is relative, and concepts like "flat" are pretty useless in The Big Picture. But, I think most musicians spend most of their time working with some pretty clear preconceptions. When you've got those, relative concepts can easily be Good Enough! If you write pansy New Age music, like me , you can compare a mix to a couple of Enya albums, and decide if you're mix "flat" or not. Compare the same "flat" new age mix to Van Halen, and you're going to think it lacks punch and bass. Compare it to thug rap, and you're going to think it REALLY lacks bass.

So, yeah, if you're doing some really experimental stuff, then "flat" has absolutely no meaning or use.

But, this is getting really esoteric - I'm just rambling because I feel like arguing about something.

On a far more practical note, I think the method of always listening to your mix on as many systems as possible is a great plan, and includes the boom box, bass boost on and off. I listen to my mixes in the car at a couple of different bass/treble settings, and go for a mix that sounds good on all of them.

Finally, thanks for the original research and post! I had actually been wondering about that.

[metalhead28]

Dude, I don't even know what the fuck you're talking about anymore........
I'm beginning to think you are disturbed or something.

[metalhead28]

The purpose of mixing to a degree and mastering by definition seems to be to make something sound good on as many playback sources as possible. The "bass button" theory seems to apply largely to people who want excessive bass in their music so if it works for you...great!!!! No reason to imply that people who want to mix for a neutral sound are morons or something. You are carrying on something awful here......

[metalhead28]

Also, you keep mentioning that you set your EQ a certain way to listen to "this" and a certain way to listen to "that".....that would drive me nuts. If I feel I need to drastically EQ something to make it sound good I tend to think it is mixed or mastered poorly. If I felt that I needed to hit some bass boost button for it to sound good I would also feel like it was mastered poorly. I tend to think that those kind of things (bass boost) are more of a marketing scheme to make people buy shitty stereos with incapable speakers rather than something to genuinely make music sound better. This seems to only reinforce the philosophy of mixing something as balanced as possible so people can decide for themselves how they want to listen to it. Unless you are only catering to people who want to exhaggerate the bass on everything, in which case your logic may hold true.....

[rivv3t]

Originally Posted by LfO

I had actually been wondering about that.

I KNEW you were. Zillions of us are.

Music IS esoteric and the bottom line is getting it to compete with whatever you have on the box. And I like Enya. Very much. Have some verrry cool toys for making ambient sounds.

And what you said about rap is exactly my point. You don't HAVE to mix it with just a little bass. What fun is that anyway....you DO have to mix it so you don't wreck somebody's speakers when they hit the bass button. Or the stupid "ROCK" EQ preset.

So I decide mix it how I want it to sound when it's finished. (With alot of bass etc.) If I DO that....and then cut it from the mix....I've just essentially made my stuff "standard" because I listen to everything else that way too. Problem solved. Not even essentially. It's basic pinhead algebra, taken care of for me for the meager fee of $17.95 by the wonderful folks at Blaze Audio.


And to Metal Dewd.....you're the one who leaves his EQ flat on his audio devices. Call me disssTURBED!


Heh. Rock on...EQs and bass buttons exist for a reason. People spend millions of dollars them every year. Billions. You're rockin alone. And if you're not, you're rockin with the rest of the group who can't get their mix to "tranfer" well to "standard" devices.

I just whooped that problem right in the ass. See ya.

*flutter of dust*

[LfO]

Originally Posted by metalhead28

The "bass button" theory seems to apply largely to people who want excessive bass in their music so if it works for you...great!!!!

That's actually a really good point - I guess we typically go for some degree of "flatness" because we expect variations of all types in the systems our music eventually gets played on. BUT, if you're into pushing the limit in terms of bass, you've got to mix for the system with the most bass - otherwise, you'll end up blowing out someone's speakers. Do I get what you're saying?

[metalhead28]

Another aspect that you are ignoring is that some people, like myself, actually invest in high end audio gear. I have a very good sound system in my car, (as well as my home) and when I leave the EQ settings flat anything I listen to still pumps and sparkles because I have good equipment. I am one of those people who appreciates a good sounding album all the more because I can hear what it is really supposed to sound like rather than destroying it with some horrid sounding bass boost circuit. I'm not knocking anybody who listens on a cheap stereo, I'm just saying that you can't ignore the other guys either.

[rivv3t]

Originally Posted by LfO

That's actually a really good point - I guess we typically go for some degree of "flatness" because we expect variations of all types in the systems our music eventually gets played on. BUT, if you're into pushing the limit in terms of bass, you've got to mix for the system with the most bass - otherwise, you'll end up blowing out someone's speakers. Do I get what you're saying?

Kind of.


We're doing this for other people. If you're not making music for other people.....then .....you ain't no fuckin musician.


I don't think it's necessary to mix for the system with the most bass. A 12b boost @ 50Hz in a car ...god, I'd like to see that. KaBOOM! Better be a tank.


It needs to compare with what you like to listen to....what you "reference" to.....there...some tech talk woohooo. Most people do....ask them....most people do mess with the EQ or they wouldn't even exist.

So you got to do the best you can with what you've got. "Average" is a pretty "relative" term.........personally I think industry standard "flat" sounds like complete shit....



But yeah that's kind of what I mean.

[metalhead28]

Furthermore, I am not discounting your theories....if they work for you that's great!

[metalhead28]

Originally Posted by rivv3t

A 12b boost @ 50Hz in a car ...god, I'd like to see that. KaBOOM! Better be a tank.

That is the clincher right there.... See, if I had a desire to do that, I know it would make any album that I own sound like complete shit. The people who want to do that are only concerned with how much SPL their subwoofers create rather than how good their music sounds. That is a BIG difference.

[rivv3t]

Originally Posted by metalhead28

Another aspect that you are ignoring is that some people, like myself, actually invest in high end audio gear. I have a very good sound system in my car, (as well as my home) and when I leave the EQ settings flat anything I listen to still pumps and sparkles because I have good equipment. I am one of those people who appreciates a good sounding album all the more because I can hear what it is really supposed to sound like rather than destroying it with some horrid sounding bass boost circuit. I'm not knocking anybody who listens on a cheap stereo, I'm just saying that you can't ignore the other guys either.

Some people....not the majority. Not myself. Hey, man Black Sabbath's first album is on my playlist and I'll probably have it buried with me. I'm an ollldschool metalhead. (Not these days...into trip hop and ambient music. Indie punk & industrial. Still like Pink Floyd but not too much of what's on the radio ...these days.) Saw Yngwie Malmsteen warm up for Ronnie James Dio in a crowd of about 1,000 tops and Pantera when they were warming up for Exodus.

But it sounds like shit compared to my Perfect Circle CD. Remastered or not.

And it sounds like shit because I don't set my EQ that way. You NOT setting your EQ is still a setting....completely and absolutely "flat" technically speaking would be....dead silence? Yes, I think it would.

The other guys....if you think in reverse....are precisely the ones I had in mind when I ventured out on this quest.


I want it to sound ...the way other CDs sound when I turn off the EQ. (Basically OK but adjustable without getting mud.)
I've accomplished this. If that sounds good to you then glory be.

Seriously, man.........you pretty much initiated the insults.

But whatever...this is a discussion. And I'm assuming most of us are pigheaded Americans....it's to be expected.

[Halion]

I saw pimp my ride yesterday (stupid car tuning program on tv). They put a 23" woofer in the back of a car. Let me repeat that: a twen-ty-three-inch woofer.

Bassboost button eat your heart out, some might say.