Recording a 100 piece choir??

[maestro04]

I'm planning on recording my congeration for this calypso like tune. It will be done at a school gymnasium. What do I do for mic placement (probably some sort of condenser mics - borrowed) and what do I do about playback for the choir? (output from a CD player onto PA system?)

[Alexbt]

I would recommend using at least two mics (left and right)placed back about 20 feet from the choir or further, to taste. You'll really have to experiment with what sounds good, especially in a gymnasium, which depending on size can be a big problem to record in.

Please explain the playback. If this is a live recording, obviously the choir will not need monitors to hear themselves. Do you mean to play it back afterwards? I suppose you can with a PA, yes. That would be the way, but why?

[bennychico11]

yeah, no need for the choir to monitor themselves while recording. if someone wants to hear if the take is good enough....let them hear one at a time through your headphones or only let the choir director listen and decide.

it's gonna be rough in the gym because of reflections...but with a choir that big i'd definitely go with a spaced pair. i'm guessing the choir will be on risers too? Spaced pair angled downwards at them. If the choir is going to be in a horseshoe shape...you may try MS (if you have the available mics)...but you'll be fine with spaced. Location of the mics is the key though..experiment.

[mshilarious]

I thought you meant they had CD accompaniment? That's trickier if you want or need to avoid bleed. If so I'd follow the spaced pair recommendation, but lower the mics and aim them up so the null is towards the wedges. Not an ideal sound; a compromise to be sure.

[Kasey]

you have no idea how jealous i am. i want to record a 100 person choir... its not fair. the closest i've gotten to is a dozen of my friends in my recording studio, singing together.

[prestomation]

The closest I've gotten is recording myself 6 times....

Recording in a gym would be a nightmare, hardfloors and walls and an absorbant ceiling, right? We mic our choir live at church with two SDC's overhead. I think it sounds great, but it's not nearly such a live space. Good luck

[maestro04]

Hey, thanks for the advice. For the playback, which will be CD through to PA system, this will be for monitoring purposes only, but how do I get away with that and not have any audio bleed?

[Kasey]

Originally Posted by maestro04

Hey, thanks for the advice. For the playback, which will be CD through to PA system, this will be for monitoring purposes only, but how do I get away with that and not have any audio bleed?

this is an insane idea... but have you ever heard of the technique where you put a singer in a vocal booth, and make an equilateral triangle around the singer with two monitors and the microphone, and then you flip the phase on one of the monitors so when they reach the mic all you hear is the singer because the two speakers were out of phase? What if you did that... but on a massive level.

of course i dont think you could do this and still use multiple mics.... and it'd take some skill.

[prestomation]

and the reverberation of the room will probably kill the idea.

But that would be sweet to pull off

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by maestro04

Hey, thanks for the advice. For the playback, which will be CD through to PA system, this will be for monitoring purposes only, but how do I get away with that and not have any audio bleed?

You're going to have some bleed. You are in a reverberant hall. However, to minimize it, use cardioid microphones, with the back of the mic pointed straight at the monitors. This means it will be angled up at the choir, instead of down like you really want. You'll lose some of the sound from voices in the back ranks.

Another approach is to embrace bleed and aim a monitor out at the stereo pair, and record the CD playback along with the choir.

[earthboundrec]

How about 100 Shure 58's . Wait.. bad idea.. would be interesting to mix though.

[IronFlippy]

Wait, why do you need the choir to monitor themselves? Choirs are used to singing sans amplification, so there's no point in trying to monitor them. If you just want to playback what you've recorded, then sure, a PA would work, but you'd only really need a decent stereo.

[guido #2]

First you need to start by order 100 SM58s from MF.....

[gtrman_66]

If they need playback for accompaniment, you can place the monitors up on stands behind cardiod mics, aimed into the choir which will hopefully minimize reflections back into the mics. You are going to get some bleed, so you might as well embrace the bleed and move on.

Also, don't forget the soloist mic if there is a soloist on any of the songs.

good luck!

[maestro04]

Originally Posted by IronFlippy

Wait, why do you need the choir to monitor themselves? Choirs are used to singing sans amplification, so there's no point in trying to monitor them. If you just want to playback what you've recorded, then sure, a PA would work, but you'd only really need a decent stereo.

The reason for the monitors is for the accompaniment track that is on a CD. Hence playback of the accompaniment through the monitor wedges. Nothing else will be coming out of the monitors except music that they need to follow.

[maestro04]

Originally Posted by earthboundrec

How about 100 Shure 58's . Wait.. bad idea.. would be interesting to mix though.

I don't think my 16 channel DWS will like all that very much. Is theres such a thing as a 100 mic Y-Cable? Hey I should do that, patent it and all.

[maestro04]

Originally Posted by gtrman_66

If they need playback for accompaniment, you can place the monitors up on stands behind cardiod mics, aimed into the choir which will hopefully minimize reflections back into the mics. You are going to get some bleed, so you might as well embrace the bleed and move on.

Also, don't forget the soloist mic if there is a soloist on any of the songs.

good luck!

Well at least I won't have to deal with a soloist at that time. Is a SM57 a cadiod mic? We have AUDIX for vocals, would that work too? I'm planning on borrowing my friend's large diaphram condenser mic (OCTOVA??) how about mixing that as well?

[maestro04]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

You're going to have some bleed. You are in a reverberant hall. However, to minimize it, use cardioid microphones, with the back of the mic pointed straight at the monitors. This means it will be angled up at the choir, instead of down like you really want. You'll lose some of the sound from voices in the back ranks.

Another approach is to embrace bleed and aim a monitor out at the stereo pair, and record the CD playback along with the choir.

Won't I have to deal with the phasing problem. If so, how do I tackle that on my D.W.S?

[easychair]

I would use more monitors, at a lower volume. That's the key in a reverberant space, trying not to excite the room too much. Using two in front and two halfway back in the chorus, for instance, will let you keep the volume of each wedge much lower, as your coverage will be better. And keep the monitor volume as low as possible, obviously. Just barely enough is enough in this kind of situation.

[maestro04]

Originally Posted by Kasey

this is an insane idea... but have you ever heard of the technique where you put a singer in a vocal booth, and make an equilateral triangle around the singer with two monitors and the microphone, and then you flip the phase on one of the monitors so when they reach the mic all you hear is the singer because the two speakers were out of phase? What if you did that... but on a massive level.

of course i dont think you could do this and still use multiple mics.... and it'd take some skill.

That is still worth a shot. What kind of mic would I use?

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by maestro04

Won't I have to deal with the phasing problem. If so, how do I tackle that on my D.W.S?

No, because you'll be using a spaced pair and observing the 3:1 rule. Edit: if the two mics are hard-panned (which may or may not sound good), it wouldn't matter anyway, but mono compatibility is rarely a bad thing.

Also gtrman's suggestion to put the wedges on stands is very good. I would also consider a low-cut around 250Hz in the wedges to keep the CD out of your recording.

Try to borrow or rent a pair of condensers, ideally small diaphragm, as they typically have more uniform off-axis response, and better rear rejection than large diaphragm mics.

[easychair]

EQing lots out of the wedges may help. You can eq it so it is essentially a kind of click track, and practice any tricky parts.

[Kasey]

Originally Posted by maestro04

That is still worth a shot. What kind of mic would I use?

hmm... well like someone said earlier it probably wouldnt work too well because of all the reverb (although in theory it should kill the initial soundwave). I said it'd only work with one microphone, but actually i think it should still work if you have an X-Y stereo pair of small diaphragm condensers. Of course, this may cause even more room for error. but, if you could pull it off... well it'd be brilliant. The mics would have to be cardioid too. or hyper cardioid or whatever. as focused as possible to pick up as little of that reverb as possible

[gtrman_66]

Originally Posted by maestro04

Well at least I won't have to deal with a soloist at that time. Is a SM57 a cadiod mic? We have AUDIX for vocals, would that work too? I'm planning on borrowing my friend's large diaphram condenser mic (OCTOVA??) how about mixing that as well?

Yes, an sm57 is a cardiod, but not the one I would choose for this job. I guess everybody has their own tastes and preferences, but I'd be tempted to use a pair of SM-81s fo this one.

[AGCurry]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

You're going to have some bleed. You are in a reverberant hall. However, to minimize it, use cardioid microphones, with the back of the mic pointed straight at the monitors. This means it will be angled up at the choir, instead of down like you really want. You'll lose some of the sound from voices in the back ranks.

Another approach is to embrace bleed and aim a monitor out at the stereo pair, and record the CD playback along with the choir.

The null of a cardioid mic is not directly behind it. Generally it's about a 120 degrees off axis.

Some thoughts come to mind:

1. How about just giving the conductor the accompaniment mix in headphones?

2. The only mics I would want to use in this situation are small-diaphragm condensor mics, due to their greater sensitivity vs. dynamics and better off-axis response vs. large diaphragms.

3. Put the choir in the middle of the room or on the long wall - not in a corner or on the short wall.

4. The fewer mics you can get away with, the better.