Death Metal Sounds

[DM_Dan]

Hey! Sorry if this is in the wrong place or anything - I'm new here! And if I've done anything wrong... having some problems getting this forum to work for some reason... keeps saying I've already posted this topic when I haven't... hope 1000 don't suddenly appear!

I'm the vocalist in a UK based death metal band called Sarpanitum. We're starting to record our debut album (released on grindethic records) pretty soon. We're doing the drums in a professional studio and then doing the rest with my home setup. We did our demo with a drum machine with my stuff a while ago and we got pretty good results. If anyone wants to check it out - www.myspace.com/sarpanitum

Anyway, enough of the self promotion. I was wondering if anyone could give me any tips on getting a really good guitar sound. Something like the latest Nile album (Annihilation of the Wicked) or None So Vile by Cryptopsy. Really meaty, but still clear. Equipment wise last time I used a POD XT and DI'd it into my pc. Amp wise, I only have a power amp these days (sold my old Marshall head) and a Marshall 2x12 - can get my hands on a 4x12 if needs be though. I was happy with the sound on our demo - but it wasn't quite meaty enough, but anything I've tried to get the sound meatier always comes out with a very nasty, kind of scratchy high end sound that I can't get rid of without destroying the whole guitar tone.

Anyway - any help/tips would be greatly appreciated!

[gbondo9]

What kind of guitar are you playing?
Todd

[metalhead28]

Hi DM Dan and welcome to the board!
In the quest for great extreme metal guitar tone the first think I ever say is avoid modelers at all costs. So if it is possible to track the guitars with a good amp then definitely do it.
The sound on the Nile albums is to my ears a "Mesa" type of sound...I can't substantiate that, it just sounds like that to me with all of the gravelly low end but still a pretty tight distortion, no fizzy mess. However I haven't heard their latest album, I'm speaking more from memory of "In Their Darkened Shrines" and the earlier albums. I don't think you'll ever get that with modeling but that doesn't mean you can't try to get as close as possible.
I recommend tracking everything with less distortion than you would ever play live with. (I would normally recommend FAR less distortion, but with this type of sound you probably want to hear the saturation) Just get to the point where the attack and punch of the notes becomes alot greater and you lose that harsh grainy high end as much as you can. This of course works much better with a powerful amp but the philosophy still holds true with a modeler. You definitely want to record at least 2 to 4 tracks of guitars (maybe more, and seperate performances) and pan them either hard left and right or spread them out a little over the field however it appeals to you. I personally like to pan them hard as it seems to make more room in the mix for other things. Doubled performances of course have to be tighter than a nun's asshole to keep things from muddying up! Also use different tones for the doubled performances so as to add to the original takes instead of just stacking up the same sounds. Basically, just don't track anything with any of that nasty, scratchy shit you don't like - just layer multiple tracks with cleaner and fuller tones until it gets heavy enough for you!

[DM_Dan]

Cheers!

As far as I know Karl Sanders actually uses a Marshall JCM 2000 and some kind of Roland effects unit. They have a pretty polished production, so I guess there's a fair bit done to it after.

For the demo we did 2 tracks each of rhythm. Guitarists used a Jackson Dinky + RR3 (I think) and the other guiatrist used an Ibanez RG520. We found the Ibanez 520 sounded pretty crappy and tinny compared to the Jackson though, so this time round that guitarist will probably be using a BC Rich Warlock NJ, maybe even the same Jackson.

So I'm guessing less gain would help cut down those nasty scratchy sounds? We DO pretty much have a sound we're happy with, its just cutting down the nastiness in it.

Perhaps some people have some POD settings they wouldn't mind sharing?
Thanks for the help so far though! I'm gonna have a good play with the stuff tomorrow after work!

[raab]

I read an interview with Opeth where they talked about recording a "Jeff Beck Type" guitar tone, where it's distorted but not TOTALLY distorted, and the power comes from layering like 4 tracks of rythm guitar with that tone. Sounds weak when you lay down the first track, but beefs up with the layering.

Avoid the pod for metal tones! Avoid digital for metal tones. Check out the Sansamp Tri-OD and Tri-AC instead.

[Ronan]

One more voice chiming in to avoid the Pod for metal (or anything else for that matter), but its high gain stuff were you really see how bad digital modeling is.

Aside from the fact that the guitar sounds will always be sub par with a Pod, the Pod guitar sounds obscure the definition in the drums, and if you are using a real drummer on this stuff, you are going to have a much tougher time getting the blast beat stuff to come though clear and the drums to sound big and tough. These days with this kind of stuff the kick drums are almost always triggered which will help a big, but the Pod really will screw up the drums sound.

[DM_Dan]

I've used the POD before, and never had any problems really. It's all we've got to use really as there's no way I can afford a new amp at the moment, and the guys from the band only really have low end Marshall heads which don't sound like anything particularly special.

[faderbug]

why don't you send the pod signal through the power amp and the cab and mic that?

[goodbyebluesky]

Recording direct from the POD is BAD. I was excited about getting a modeler because I thought it would free me up from having to mic it up everytime I wanted to record something quick, but even in a scratch demo the recorded quality just sucks. You won't find *meaty* tone there buddy.
At least amp up the pod and mic it, then stack multiple performances like someone else said. But also try panning just 50% left and right, in addition to hard left and right. I like the former because you don't lose the center of the sound image.
I have pulled some *ok* metal tones out of my POD Pro, but nothing with the crunch and clarity of Killswitch, or the meatiness of As I Lay Dying. I typically start off with the "Insane" amp model and play around ALOT with the cab models and EQ. I found I actually like boosting the mids alot rather than scooping them. The Rectifier models don't have enough gain to get that sound, which is sad cus in real liife a cranked Triple Rec would shred your socks off. Try downloading tones from the Line6 website, there are guys out there that must live in front of their PODs. Let their tweaking lead the way.

[amra]

Most Death Metal is so heavily processed you would never know if it came from a modeler or not. They intentionally make it sound processed and sterile, anyways so what's the point of starting out with a tube amp. For most genres of music, you ARE better off micing a nice tube amp, but Death Metal, Black Metal, or even Industrial type Metal are not them.

I keep trying to tell you guys the V-AMP is WAY better than the POD for high gain stuff. The POD has the edge when it comes to medium gain stuff like Satriani/Vai type tones, and maybe even blues types. But when it comes to cleans, or mega gain, the V-AMP really kicks ass. Hey if you have the money to throw around, by all means get yourself a JCM2000 and the effects you need, then EQ and compress the hell out of it. But you could get to the same place with a V-AMP Pro, and nobody would be able to tell which highly processed, compressed and EQ'd track was which.

[cellardweller]

I'm pretty happy with my Sansamp GT2.
I haven't tried recording any insanely high-gain with it, but I was able to pull off a fairly convincing Ancient Wisdom-ish tone this weekend...

[amra]

Cellar,
I have never tried the sans amp, but I have heard great things about it.
Do you have any high-gain type samples?

[Cloneboy Studio]

I think the formula for great guitar tone is the same for death metal as it is for any other type of music. You just have to obey the golden chain:

Great song played by a great guitarist on a great guitar through a great TUBE HEAD into a great speaker cab captured by a great microphone positioned in the right spot by a great engineer using a great recorder which ultimately will recieve a great mix.

Simplicity itself!

[metalhead28]

Originally Posted by amra

Most Death Metal is so heavily processed you would never know if it came from a modeler or not. They intentionally make it sound processed and sterile, anyways so what's the point of starting out with a tube amp. For most genres of music, you ARE better off micing a nice tube amp, but Death Metal, Black Metal, or even Industrial type Metal are not them.

I have to disagree with you there. There may be alot of extreme metal with horrible guitar sound, but the ones that stand out for their quality do so with a killer guitar sound just like they would stand out in any other genre of metal. There are some albums in the extreme metal arena that have unbelievably good guitar sounds and they are definitely done with bitchin tube amps and expert engineering. I'm not saying that modelers can't get you a fair amount of the way there, but that last 15% of a great sound will never be achievable. As long as you won't be upset by that fact, you're okay. It just depends on how obsessed you are with tone. And personally, I don't think sterile, over-processed guitar sounds work any better with death metal than they do with anything else....just my 2 cents.....

[amra]

Just to be sure we are all on the same page, and comparing apples to apples, I am talking about stuff like this:
Clip - As I Lay Dying - "94 Hours"

You guys know I love metal. I am not putting down the tone, or the style, I am just saying that this type of tone is so processed that I don't think genuine "tube warmth" or "natural tube sound" is much of, if at all a factor in this type of sound.

[metalhead28]

Originally Posted by amra

Just to be sure we are all on the same page, and comparing apples to apples, I am talking about stuff like this:
Clip - As I Lay Dying - "94 Hours"

Yikes!...that sounds like absolute garbage to me

yeah, I agree that alot of extreme metal suffers from horrible guitar tones.....but there are definitely some that break that stigma....

Ever heard "Heartwork"?

[amra]

Ever heard "Heartwork"?

Nope, can you post a clip?


BTW, that type of sound is what all the young bands around here are going for, and 'As I lay Dying' sells a bunch of records (cds). Most of the big Death Metal or Metalcore bands that are big right now sound similar.

[metalhead28]

Here's a page with some clips:

http://www.metaltracks.com/cgi-bin/s...tem=MOSH%20097

I tried to direct link a song but I couldn't. Just check out any of those tracks. Classic!

[metalhead28]

Oh yeah, and in reference to the As I Lay Dying clip...I sincerely hope that this guy doesn't want to sound like that! That would be a sacrilige to Death Metal!!!! hahaha

Also check out this page with some Nile clips. This would be the stuff that he cited as a reference to the sound he wanted.

http://www.mp3shits.com/full/downloa...ked_mp3/50258/

[VesuviusJay]

I get some good tones with a modeler as long as I push the hell out of it with a tube pre. Check out some of the tones on our music page if you want to hear some...

[DM_Dan]

Haha, no - we wouldn't want to touch stuff like As I Lay Dying with a barge pole. We're more into early Nile, Decrepit Birth, Disgorge, later Behemoth, Immolation etc.

It seems as the pod isn't very popular here! I've used it live in my other band countless times, and like I said also recorded our last demo with it and I've never been anything less than happy with the results. Please bear in mind we are completely broke financially and have already blown all we can afford going into the studio to record the drums, so we've gotta use what we got - which is the POD, or cheap, low end Marshall heads. I've tried micing it up, and I get a better sound from the POD by DI'ing it rather than micing my 2x12 up. We get a better sound from the 4x12, but it's pretty difficult to move from our practice room (we're spread all over England and only one of us can drive).

[VesuviusJay]

In order to get the best sound all you need is a 4X12 and a couple of sm57 or beta 57a. Use these instructions to do it right...

From a GREAT metal engineer Aaron Carey of Pipeline Audio...

I done quite a bit of work for artists on the " Metal Blade " label so I guess I can chime in

Actually a lot of this came from following around the UBER God Of Metal Engineering : Bill Metoyer. ( check the back of your records, if you dont see his name on anything, you need a trip to the record store )

Make DAMN sure your guitar is in tune, and intonated properly. Different intonations and even VERY slightly different, can make whole separate flavors of distortion so get it as close as you can. If you know the difference in distortion sound between a 24 3/4" scale guitar neck and a 25 1/2" one then you know what Im saying.

Now on to your preamp, or preamp section of your head, depending on what you got. In most cases, metal guitar tones come from a LOT, a WHOLE LOT less ( thats right LESS ) distortion/preamp gain than you would use live. For riffs and chord changes, the REAL heaviness comes from dynamics, the fact that it gets LOUDER when your pic hits the string than when the string is just resonating.
It seems obvious but its not really. You need to MAXIMIZE the dynamic range at this stage because from here on out, the signal is going to be compressed and degraded in all sorts of ways. In most cases the gain should be about where, when if you SOFTLY strum a chord it actually comes out clean. Transistor amps/pedals may not do this ( some will ) which is another reason tubes are usually perferred for this type of thing.
Now, tone. Scooped mids, cranked bass and treble right? WRONG. For recording you will need a LOT more mids than you normally would for live. You need to be heard. The way our ears work, we take most of our cues from the midrange. Get as much body in the tone as you can....not bottom, body. You can always scoop it out later if you must. Like the lumberjack says " always cut long" right ?

Ok, on to the power amp or the power section of your head if you use one. Here is where you start the dynamic reduction process. You want to get a sound with enough sustain to work, but being careful whether or not you want to HEAR power tube saturation or speaker distortion. In some cases you want to, in some cases you dont. Get a good sound that you ENJOY. Make sure ( if you can at this point in the recording) that it fits with the other tracks. You will probably use a speaker that you wouldnt like live for this process. A speaker with more mid's than normal, like a celestion Vintage 30 or maybe a Kendrick. Greenbacks are good live, but sometimes lose that all important midrange on tape. Watch the speaker distortion, get a power level that makes COMFORTABLE dynamics for you. Errr on the LESS compressed side so you gotta work just a WEE bit harder than normal to crunch it up.

Now, stand in the room with the amp. Get your head moving around until you find the one speaker that sounds better than the others, or maybe just a real good spot where it seems to sound best. I am assuming we are NOT going after a " room " sound at this point. Stick a 57 RIGHT there, where your ear was.
Now, at the console, FIRST verify that that is *roughly* the sound you heard out there. Be sure levels are where they should be etc...no eq at this point on the console. Have someone move the mic back towards or away from the cab ( or do it yourself with headphones ). You are doing two things with this:

1) changing the ratio of direct( from the speaker ) vs. reflected ( yeah you might be only a few inches from the cab but the room still is playing a HUGE part) sound coming into the mic

2)changing the amount of dynamic compression that the actual volume of the speaker is causing in the mic's diaphragm, ribbon or voice coil. You are changing the BEHAVIOUR of the sound here.

Once you like the placement of your mic, its time to get REAL tricky.

ONE mic is almost never enough, but with two or more, PHASE CANCELLATION rears its ugly head. But we got a trick for that right?

Here comes

Put the guitar down. Make it make noise, or take the cable off and stick it on something that will make noise. This noise has to be stable and constant....a fender strat's hum is perfect for this assuming it has some midrange harmonics to it.

Using your console's meters, bring that noise up to wherever your "zero" is. This will probably require a LOT of mic pre gain so make sure your speakers are turned down. DONT let anyone touch the guitar or whatever the noise source is. Once youve got the signal to zero, mute the channel

Next go into the room with the amp, and put another mic about equidistant from the speaker as the first mic is...Be careful not to disturb Mic #1.

Back in the control room, bring Mic #2 up to zero

Now, VERY IMPORTANTLY, pull Mic#2's fader ( NOT mic pre ) down to -infinity. Unmute Mic#1. Slowly push Mic#2's fader up towards zero.

If the volume at your final LeftRight Mix buss on your console goes UP, you need to flip the phase of mic #2. If your console doesnt have a phase switch, make an out of phase cable. Just reverse pins 2 and 3 on an XLR, and make DAMN sure you label that cable from now on so you dont screw up some overheads or something.
Remember if the volume goes UP flip the phase

If the volume goes down we can proceed...keep flipping the phase until the volume goes DOWN when they are at their zeros.

Now pick up a bat, knife or gun. Whatever you are best with. Threaten anyone in the control room with it and say " DO NOT touch that guitar !!!! I am gonna have headphones on at extreme gain levels and am risking it all so you can have a good guitar sound ". Wave the weapon around menacingly until you are SURE that they get the point. Kick them out and lock the door if you cant trust em...now is NOT the time for gags.

now go out to the amp with headphones on. You will hear a hiss or buzz or hum...make sure the hum in the phones is louder than the one you can hear directly from the amp.

DO NOT cough, you will blow your eardrums right into each other. Becareful of any noise that may be present.

Now, EXTREMELY carefully, move Mic#2 back and forth, left and right. SLOWLY

You should hear a whoosh, much like a flanger pedal would make.

The trick here is to find the spot where the LEAST noise is coming out of the headphones. Keep moving the mic you will find it.

have you caught the theory yet? We are looking for the spot where the two mics are THE MOST in phase with each other. If one is phase flipped, then at the most in phase spot, they will nearly cancel each other out. FIND THAT SPOT

once you got it, take off the phones and go back to the console.

Turn both mic preamps gains ALL the way down. Put fader one at the unity position on your console. Play your guitar and turn up the mic pre gain until you hit zero. Now mute Mic #1. Now turn fader 2 to the unity position. Bring up Mic pre #2 until you hit zero.

edit : OOPS!!!!!!
I forgot, tho you prolly figured it out. Unflip the phase on mic #2 at this point so that both mics are IN phase. Sorry about that

Unmute #1 and mess with the faders. Those two faders now become the BEST EQ money can buy! Turn up one then the other, experiment to your heart's content. Once you got a sound you like, buss them together and send em to a track...or keep em separate if you want some choices later...

revel in your glorious new tone!

[DM_Dan]

Cheers man! I'll get one of them heads down then and we'll have a play and see what we can get!

[VesuviusJay]

Take a listen to this track...

http://www.vesuvius.us/vultures.mp3

This was a 4X12 with a single pair of beta 57a. Only a single guit track for each side.

POWER!!!

[CyanJaguar]

Originally Posted by amra

Most Death Metal is so heavily processed you would never know if it came from a modeler or not. They intentionally make it sound processed and sterile, anyways so what's the point of starting out with a tube amp. For most genres of music, you ARE better off micing a nice tube amp, but Death Metal, Black Metal, or even Industrial type Metal are not them.

I keep trying to tell you guys the V-AMP is WAY better than the POD for high gain stuff. The POD has the edge when it comes to medium gain stuff like Satriani/Vai type tones, and maybe even blues types. But when it comes to cleans, or mega gain, the V-AMP really kicks ass. Hey if you have the money to throw around, by all means get yourself a JCM2000 and the effects you need, then EQ and compress the hell out of it. But you could get to the same place with a V-AMP Pro, and nobody would be able to tell which highly processed, compressed and EQ'd track was which.

I echo everything AMRA said.