Best matched condenser pair for stereo recording?

[mindbuzz]

I know... this is another comparison thread. Sorry, but I've been researching cardioid pattern condensers and I couldn't find another thread on this type of mic set. Here's a list of possibilities that I've found. Anyone know how these sound vs. quality for price paid? I don't want to spend more than $450. Here's a really short list of my findings right now based on price from lowest to highest...

) Behringer C-2 set with stereo mount and transport case ($50). To my knowledge the only good Behringer's would be the B-1 or B-2 Pro. From what I've read I doubt I'd ever add any Berhinger mic to my collection other than one of those, and only then if I were really on the fly with a tight budget. --
- http://store.yahoo.com/djgear/behrin...crophones.html

) Superlux SMK-H8K matched set ($150) --
- http://www.superlux.us/smalldiaphragm.html

) Studio Projects C4 Condenser Microphone pair ($299) --
- http://www.zzounds.com/item--STUC4

) Rode NT5 matched set ($399)

) Rode NT4 ($450)

Any other thoughts? I've never auditioned any of these microphones. Can someone describe the sound of a C4 set compared to a Superlux or other?

[Robert D]

I'd add these to your short list. You could add a pair of omni capsules and go just $40 over your budget, and have a really versatile setup. Or just get the cardiods now, and get the omni caps later.

http://sound-room.com/customer/home.php?cat=3

Cheers,
RD

[mindbuzz]

Thanks for the reply! I've heard good things about Oktava's. Do you own any?

) Oktava MK012 / MK012A / MK012-MSP pair. Small diaphragm microphones with interchangeable capsules for a versatile mic pair -- 3 polarities (cardioid, hypercardioid, and omni) to fit any range of needs. ($376 for just a matched cardioid capsule pair, additional paired capsules $178) --
- http://sound-room.com/customer/home.php?cat=3

Ok, obviously I'm trying to expand my limited microphone database of knowledge here. The mics I listed initially are all small diaphragm. Obviously there are large diaphragm matched pairs too. Depending on the what's being recorded, I'm sure a large diaphragm pair could easily be better than a small diaphragm for stereo recording. If there's a good pair that's under $450, that might be something to consider.

) Oktava MK319 matched pair. According to the website, similar to the MK219's which possess a "Neumann-like" sound quality... now, which Neumann mic exactly, I don't know, but these are a little out of my price range anyway ($588) --

... Does anyone know what kinds of sounds these mics get? Bright? Dark? Warm? Good roll-off? Mud? Too noisy? Tin-cannish? Natural?

And as long as I'm adding stereo pair mic's that are out of my price range...

SCHOEPS MSTC 64g. ORTF (Orchestrated-Rise-To-Fall?) setup stereo mic ($2,879) --
- http://www.cascademedia.net/products...86&prodid=1368

Does anyone know how the Rode NT's sound? There's one other thread I found here about them, but no one really had anything beneficial to say about them. One reason I really like the Rode NT4 design is because it's already perfectly x-y aligned and can easily record on-the-go with very little setup. The downside is, it's only one, fixed setup.

For versatility, I guess I might go with the Oktava's over the NT5's. It doesn't appear that the capsules are interchangeable in Rode NT5's or Studio Project C4's or Superlux models. Again, I don't know how any of these compare in terms of sound. ^_^

Any other suggestions? How durable are these mics? I want a pair I can transport and set up outdoors or in a coffee house without having to worry too much about weathering or maybe a little bumpy car ride.

[Robert D]

Yes, I have a pair of the 012s, and I have a 319. I just love the 012s, and use them a lot. There are many threads around on these, with the common theme being that they sound great, but with a recurring negative theme about Oktava quality control. These mics can be bought a lot cheaper at Guitar Center, if they're in stock. But buying them at GC is a bit of a crapshoot. I bought mine that way, but hand picked them from a new batch after auditioning a bunch of them. Most were fine, a couple were slightly less sensitive, and a couple were standouts. Since then, the pickens have gotten slimmer, and a new issue arose with some Chinese made ones instead of the real Russian ones. So if you do your homework and then can get to a GC when a batch comes in, and get a salesman to let you pick out the cherrys, then you can save a bit of money. For someone looking for an actual stereo pair though, and budgeted accordingly.....it would probably make sense to just go to the soundroom and know that your getting a genuine, prescreened, and matched pair. I have an omni capsule that I bought there, and it sounds very nice. I think I'm gonna pick up a Lomo head also, a large diaphram head that screws onto the 012 body. It uses a replacement diaphram for U87s. Someone posted some clips comparing it with an NTK (which I also own) and a 57. Search for it.
As far as the 319, I like it and use it fairly often, but I don't think I'd be that interested in a stereo pair of them. It's a good, non hyped LDC, and well worth getting, but see if you can snatch one at GC for a song.

Cheers,
RD

[mindbuzz]

Thanks RD! I'll run a search right now for that NTK comparison. And I'll hit up GC today, see if I can audition any of these.

Adding to that matched pair list...

) AKG C 3000B TWIN PACK. Large diaphragm condensers, ruggedly constructed, with 2 switches: an adjustable "preattenuation" switch and adjustable bass roll-off switch ($499) --
- http://www.wwbw.com/AKG-C-3000B-TWIN...music#overview

Is "preattenuation" a polarity thing?

[Sklathill]

I use a stereo matched pair of CAD M179s, but CAD won't stereo match those anymore; I did get another pair just off the shelf and they're really close. Elsewhere on the BBS people were fawning over a stereo pair of M-Audio Solaris mics. M-Audio doesn't stereo match either, but they do guarantee that every mic is within a db across the range of a reference mic for easy off the shelf matching.

I used to have a Samson C02 stereo set, which is, from what I understand, a rebranding of the Superlux mics. Decent mics, and I really liked them on amps, but I can't say I was happy with them for room micing (which it sounds like you're doing); my MXL 603s and GXL1200s were quieter.

Man, considering the price of that C2 set, I'm thinking about buying them. You can never have enough throwaway condensers for micing up those drum kits, eh?

Preattenuation is a pad. Use it on loud sources so you don't have craziness your preamp can't handle.

[leddy]

I have used stero pairs of the MC012's as well as the MK319's. While they are both excellent mics, I find the MC012's better as overheads. I only have cardiod heads for them, but the MC012 high end is more detailed and takes EQ better, IMO, YMMV, etc..

[mindbuzz]

Sklat -
True. Cheap condensers are a real plus on drums. But 50 bucks there means another 50 less that I'll have right now to spend on some matched stereo mics.

) matched NT1A pair for $499. They're touted as the "world's quietest microphones." I could easily use those for vocals and instruments and anything - isolated vocals to choirs, acoustic guitar or djimbe or between toms... one of these is $199, so that would be basically $50 more per mic for a matched set.
- http://www.music123.com/Rode-NT1-A-M...?source=nextag

Leddy -
Thanks. The Oktava 012's seem to be in my price range criteria. I won't be using them as overheads though. They'd be a pair of room mics, essentially, for optimum stereo. How durable are they? Would you use them in outdoor, ambient settings or close mic'ing an amp?

Oh, and I just called Guitar Center. Auditioning condenser mics isn't possible because of a health code on reselling used/opened microphones.

The guy told me to listen to my favorite bands and find out what kinds of mics they use for their songs. That wouldn't be such a bad idea if it's possible, but how would I find out what mic is on what?

[AGCurry]

Originally Posted by mindbuzz

Depending on the what's being recorded, I'm sure a large diaphragm pair could easily be better than a small diaphragm for stereo recording.

Not likely. As Harvey Gerst has taught us, small diaphragms have inherently better off-axis response, which is important for stereo recording.

[mindbuzz]

Cool. That was my original thought. Small diaphragm = better. That's why the list of small's at first. But the guy at GC now just tried to sell me a 57, and I got confused.

[noisedude]

Ignore the salesmen! They have a job to do. I work selling musical gear for a living now ... and I'm aware that I have an opportunity to bring integrity that I learned on this forum to a retail setting ... but my boss would rather I shift this amp or that guitar that has been hanging around since forever!!!

FWIW - I really do like the SP C4s, the Røde NT5s are a good second best, and there are some others (Peluso and Schoeps) for similar money that I haven't tried yet.

And whilst SDCs good ... my best stereo recordings are always made with Audio Technica AT4050s, which are a somewhat more expensive LDC.

Nik

[mindbuzz]

) Peluso Stereo CEMC6 Kit. There are some reasonably priced cardioid condensers by Peluso. A stereo matched pair kit includes everything: shockmounts, hardmounts, flight case, kitchen sink, and additional capsules ($769.60) --
- http://www.soundpure.com/showProduct.do?id=713

The "fully loaded" stereo matched pair costs even more.

[mindbuzz]

Noisedude, why do you like the C4's better than the Nt5's?

[noisedude]

Originally Posted by mindbuzz

Noisedude, why do you like the C4's better than the Nt5's?

For me, slightly more even response across the range. The NT5s are a touch 'darker' in the highs, which would suit my rubbishy rooms at home quite nicely. But when I'm in a proper live room (i.e. any room that sounds nice, including those at the studio I spend my time in), the C4s just have a more natural sound to my ears.

My theory is that you can take out a little if you want, but you can't put it back in if it was never captured. So the argument about dark mics for a less than ideal room is something you could sort out with a little subtractive EQ-ing.

Oh, and omni caps in the pack for the money makes the C4s a sweeter deal ... I would be very confident using them for a church/large hall-based recording of a choir or orchestra. But don't get me wrong - the NT5s are very usable, and I'd be more confident in buying them than the Oktavas, which seem to be increasingly patchy QC-wise.

People are welcome to disagree with me.

[mindbuzz]

) Joemeek JM27 PAC Microphones. They come with a stereo bar, shockmounts, windscreens, and a plastic case. And they're a really good deal (179.00) --
- http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/prod.itml/icOid/7046

This Joe Meek pair is extremely low end in price, but the pack has all the essentials. Anyone have a pair of these?

Thanks for the advice, noisedude. SP C4's. Ok, I see now there are 2 interchangeable caps for those too (omni and cardioid). I hadn't read the fine print on them very thoroughly before now. I'm not sure if I really need omni caps at the moment, but that's cool it comes with two cap types. I actually think I agree with you just from what I've read about the NT5's and how they sound. NT5's = kinda dark / C4's = more natural.

What I'd like to do essentially with these mics:
> Different guitar isolation and mic techniques
> XY (on indoor and outdoor sounds)
> maybe try some variations of ORTF (DIN, NOS, Olson, RAI, etc.) in room situations for a range of instruments and open air sounds - ambient, ensemble-style recording of performances and gigs...
> and I already have a figure-8 mic for vocals that works great (it's a Nady RSM-2), so I can experiment with MS techniques using the cardioid(s) in combo as well.

[sunflute]

Hello,

You can get a basic matched pair of Peluso CEMC6s for about $550 shipped.
They are great, I've used them for live concert recording and I've been very pleased with them.

Peace
Marco

[leddy]

Originally Posted by mindbuzz

Sklat -
Leddy -
Thanks. The Oktava 012's seem to be in my price range criteria. I won't be using them as overheads though. They'd be a pair of room mics, essentially, for optimum stereo. How durable are they? Would you use them in outdoor, ambient settings or close mic'ing an amp?

I've used them on amps and as a snare mic (with the pad of course). I would use them outdoors, weather permitting.

[noisedude]

FWIW - The Joemeek JM27 is more or less the same mic as the MXL603s, cos they're both OEM designs.

[Robert D]

Somebody posted a 603 / 012 comparison recently. Try a search for that. I liked the 603 clip, but correctly identifed and preferred the 012 clip.

-RD

[jerfo]

Originally Posted by mindbuzz

) Joemeek JM27 PAC Microphones. They come with a stereo bar, shockmounts, windscreens, and a plastic case. [...]
This Joe Meek pair is extremely low end in price, but the pack has all the essentials. Anyone have a pair of these?

I got a pair of these as a throw-in to my purchase of an M-Audio Tampa preamp. They're really not bad at all. They were pretty flattering on acoustic guitar, and they were decent (but a bit harsh in the high end) as drum overheads. I initially preferred them to the Oktava MK012s because of the high end response, although I've come to prefer the more neutral Oktavas over time.

If I remember correctly, the JM27 was not entirely identical to the MXL 603 (which I have not personally used). For starters, the JM27 has an output transformer while the 603 does not. In addition, the grilles are fairly different on each of them. However, judging from the frequency response graph of the 603, they probably sound pretty similar to one another.

Anyway, they're very usable mics for very little money. They'd probably be very good for your room/ambient stereo recordings.

- Jerfo

[mindbuzz]

Ok first of all, those MXL 603 sticks look like junk.

Now I've looked at the specs on some of these. For the price, jerfo, you're right on about the Oktava's. The frequency range looks a bit shaky depending on placement, but overall the '012's far surpass the competition. The Oktava omni and cardioid capsules have a closer linear response for the price. The specs say that, although less predictable, they sound better than the Studio Project C4's, according to the graphs. Just that the C4 omni cap is pretty damn linear for $299. If $450 was my magical price limit, I could snap up a pair of Oktava's for less at auction, probably pretty easily. Or get a pair of C4's. They both have advantages.

For some reason, one thing I've been amateurishly concerned about with these SDC microphones is self noise. Not that I thoroughly understand self-noise, I just think it sounds like a bad thing. Self noise on the Oktava is (at 18dB) higher than the C4 (16dB) and about the same as the JM27's (18dB). The C4's win there, but that seems neglegible after a little more research. For comparison, a DPA 4011 with a nearly perfect linear response creates a self noise of 19-25dB depending on the setup.

The Joe Meek JM27's don't actually seem to have mapped out pattern response circles or diagrams, but from what I've read I can safely assume from the specs that these little guys have virtually no low end at all and that the dropoff in the 50 - 300Hz range on the JM27's probably is pretty bad. Of couse a high-end flare could definitely add some flavor to some acoustics... and could very well balance out the lows that bleed from my vocal mic to the guitar.

I know what you're saying though about the neutral response with the Oktava's because I can't add something that isn't there, but I could knock out lows, as long as they're there, with an EQ in mastering... and match a JM27 sound pretty well using a more neutral mic.

) Peluso CEMC 6 stereo pair. I couldn't find any specs. Sorry. I would guess they're pretty nice for that price and from what I've read here on the BBS. I don't know how nice really.... a smooth $565 nice on Ebay --
- http://cgi.ebay.com/PELUSO-CEMC6-STE...QQcmdZViewItem

...

[The Garage]

forget about the specs and use your ears. i don't think you can use a company's spec sheets to determine which mic is better. just my two cents.

[noisedude]

Originally Posted by mindbuzz

The Joe Meek JM27's don't actually seem to have mapped out pattern response circles or diagrams, but from what I've read I can safely assume from the specs that these little guys have virtually no low end at all and that the dropoff in the 50 - 300Hz range on the JM27's probably is pretty bad.

Why would that be safe to assume?

And if the MXL603s is good enough for Harvey Gerst, it's sure as hell good enough for me ... and as such I don't think I'd describe it as junk.

Nik

[mindbuzz]

This is what I hear: "Just buy a Meek."

Yeh, so I bought the JM27's. Those were some hard-edged opinions with no substance. I ought to try a pair. And for that price, I could afford to buy two pairs. Aesthetically I like the Joe stereo set better than the MXL's. Not to rip on Harvey because this Meek set is a brand new thing... I bet if he were in my shoes, he might try the Meeks too.

If I want more later I actually really would like to try the Peluso's.

[Harvey Gerst]

Haven't heard the Pelusos or the Meeks, so I can't comment on them.