question about amp tone

[Jacko]

i was wondering how modern bands get their sound? its dirty, yet clean. I want to achieve this sound on my recordings but everything is either to clean or too dirty, i know mesa boogies are used but i have an amp that gets similar sounds to it live and i still cant achieve those tones recording, along with that i also have an 80s peavey vtm, is there anyway i can achieve that sound? would eqing and editing work or is there more to it then that?

[Outlaws]

Its from overdubbing, using multiple amps, using less gain that you need live, and all out studio magic.

[punkin]

I've had the same gripe myself...I have a couple big amps and some big cabs but you've really got to crank them up to get "the sound". I went the digital modeller route...at first it sounded cool but after settling in with it and really listening, it was still missing something.

I've gone the small low power amp route recently and I'm much happier. I can give it hell without hurting myself. Layering sounds with a good small tube amp and an amp modeller can be cool too. I'll sometimes take a signal to the amp and mic it up and a second signal to a very light delay in my POD. Mix em up and instant wall of sound (after some tweaking of course).

[gbondo9]

You're dealing with multiple answers here:
1st - Millions of $ are spent in studios with millions of $ worth of equipment. Pit your $100 mic and your $100 pre against their $4000 mic into their $8000 pre and they will win every time.
2nd - Having a complete band with FAT bass and drums makes a HUGE difference in the sound of your guitar. I know that sounds wierd, but alot of times, the signals that these "heavy" sounds are coming from are only overdriven with a great band behind them.
3rd - Overdubbing, and studio magic, as stated before. Clean sound mixed with overdriven sound mixed with etc etc. The engineers and producers of these albums are paid to know how to get these sounds.
4th - Their gear. These bands have more money (and more sponserships) than we do - Take the most expensive Mesa, or Soldano, or VHT (or any of the nice amp brands) - run it through the most expensive speaker cabinet, with the expensive cables and the expensive pedals and plug in an expenisive Les Paul, or PRS, or whatever, and put a nice $4000 mic in front of it ....etc, etc, etc

Im not saying that we cannot get damn close to acheiving great sounds, but mainstream stuff is the result of alot of money - which most of us just don't have. I would try experimenting with mixing different signals and overdubbing, and make sure you have a nice fat bass behind you. Make sure you're using a guitar with humbuckers in it (that makes a huge difference).
Good luck.
Todd

[Dani Pace]

The best way I have found (on a limited budget) is to play through two amps, one set up clean and one with distortion, record them on seperate tracks then blend them to get the desired tone. We all hear those great overdriven tones with an underlieing clear tone and want to get it ourselves.
The pros do it all the time, but they are likely to have more and better gear, not to mention years of experience to perfect their technique.

[Hard2Hear]

Originally Posted by gbondo9

You're dealing with multiple answers here:
1st - Millions of $ are spent in studios with millions of $ worth of equipment. Pit your $100 mic and your $100 pre against their $4000 mic into their $8000 pre and they will win every time.
2nd - Having a complete band with FAT bass and drums makes a HUGE difference in the sound of your guitar. I know that sounds wierd, but alot of times, the signals that these "heavy" sounds are coming from are only overdriven with a great band behind them.
3rd - Overdubbing, and studio magic, as stated before. Clean sound mixed with overdriven sound mixed with etc etc. The engineers and producers of these albums are paid to know how to get these sounds.
4th - Their gear. These bands have more money (and more sponserships) than we do - Take the most expensive Mesa, or Soldano, or VHT (or any of the nice amp brands) - run it through the most expensive speaker cabinet, with the expensive cables and the expensive pedals and plug in an expenisive Les Paul, or PRS, or whatever, and put a nice $4000 mic in front of it ....etc, etc, etc

I'm sorry, but most of that is just a lame excuse for living with bad guitar tone. More and more signed popular bands are working with modest recording budgets and even buying gear to build their own studios. Bands today are smarter than bands of yesterday, and they've realized that THEY end up paying for all that recording time, so why not invest it in their own future, when their song falls off the charts and they have to keep something going.

God knows, Ive personally heard total crap through top notch gear. Ive owned the best amps and guitars available. And Ive gotten great sound from the expensive stuff and from the cheaper stuff. The standard 2 mics for guitar micing are still the SM57 and the U87, both widely seen in mid level and even home recording studios these days. And in most cases guitars are just run through console pres, not expensive vocal chains. The consoles are great, but you can get the same quality in a racked pre for reasonable cost.

What you're hearing is mostly overdubbing and timing. Rarely is the timing of guitars on a home recording as good as a pro recording because the pro does it all day and the non-pro does it for a few hours after work. A good producer will not move on until the tracks are so tight you can't tell how many guitar parts are actually in there. I consider myself a tight rythm player, but Ive worked for 10 hours on a single song for just guitar overdubs before getting it close to right. Mst time at home I don't give it that attention.

So, again, the producer is really responsible for the sound. The right blend of clean/distorted tracks, the levels of those tracks, and the attention to detail when it comes to strict timing. As to levels, many times there will be some really overdriven tracks in there that you never really hear because the levels are set really low. But they're brought up just enough to fatten up the track without actually being able to detect the additional tracks in there. For me personally, its not rare at all to have 10-12 rythm guitar parts in one song playing the exact same thing, just with different tones to blend together and work with.

I will agree with the fact that a good bass sound really solidifies a good guitar sound. But its not hard for anyone to get a good bass sound if they just try. Out of every di available on earth, I cloose to use one that costs $200 and I love it. And I'm using a bass that cost only about $500 and it does exactly what I want. Just use your ears to find what works.

H2H

[Codmate]

Try recording your distorted guitar parts clean and then re-amping them to get a dirty version of the same track.

Either that or bi-amp.

Regular double tracking can help get a 'big' sound too.
When you double track guitar parts try and use two different guitars with different characteristsics. On the Smokehand album I used a Tele, a LP Studio and a Watkins guitar. The Tele and the LP together made a really big sound.

Also use different voicings of the same chords. For instance - if in one track you record an 'F' power chord using the first fret position starting on the E string, on the doubling track use the 8th fret position starting on the A string.

[legionserial]

Originally Posted by Hard2Hear

What you're hearing is mostly overdubbing and timing. Rarely is the timing of guitars on a home recording as good as a pro recording because the pro does it all day and the non-pro does it for a few hours after work. A good producer will not move on until the tracks are so tight you can't tell how many guitar parts are actually in there. I consider myself a tight rythm player, but Ive worked for 10 hours on a single song for just guitar overdubs before getting it close to right. Mst time at home I don't give it that attention.H2H

I would agree. I would say I play pretty tight but I still pretty much spend like 6-7 hours of solid playing just to get down one rhythm track and to get it tight enough. Cos I won't move on till its perfect. And thats just the first track. And thats the first of a whole shedload of rhythm guitar tracks to thicken the sound up, using different amps to get some tonal variety. If it isnt 100% tight it sounds sloppy and that alone can completely screw the guitar sound up. Especially if you're palm muting and you have a double bass drum mirroring it...

[gbondo9]

Originally Posted by Hard2Hear

I'm sorry, but most of that is just a lame excuse for living with bad guitar tone. More and more signed popular bands are working with modest recording budgets and even buying gear to build their own studios. Bands today are smarter than bands of yesterday, and they've realized that THEY end up paying for all that recording time, so why not invest it in their own future, when their song falls off the charts and they have to keep something going.

What do you consider a "modest" recording budget? 100k? 50k? 250k? and which bands are you refering too? Audioslave? Foo fighters? Seether? White stripes? How much did they spend? Im also sure you're aware that a U87 costs about $3000? My most expensive mic is a studio projects mic at about $100.

At no point was I trying to propose laying over and dying with bad tone. I wouldnt be recording - or posting on this board if I thought bad tone was good. My entire post had many of the same "helpful" points yours did.
I was just suggesting that better gear sounds better. Industry poducers make things sound better too - and If you can't get your sound to be identical to Nickleback - dont be discouraged - They spent thousands more than you to get that sound (even on a "modest" budget). With that being said - the rest of my post was an attempt to help and try to acheive a damn close sound.

Todd

[Hard2Hear]

A U87 can be had for half of that. Ive seen some for sale, even in the classifieds here, for like $1200. There are many home recorders these days that own mics costing that and more. But thats really outside of the point.

Digital recording has really evened out the game. Record companies aren't throwing around contracts like they used to. A band with even 3 or 4 top 40's has to put up for their second album and lots of them are doing it with budgets similar or smaller than some of the guys on this board. My studio gear all added up is probably around $20k, which is pretty small compared to some other guys here. Ive worked in some studios owned by popular bands that cost under $100k total and they get anything they want from it.

Search this board for examples of what Ed Rei (aka sonusman) was able to pull off with an AT4033, SM57, and an Art TubeMP. My point is that you can do anything you want with cheap gear, and pros are doing it, too. The fantasy land of million dollar recording budgets is over. Just ask any major studio owner.

H2H

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by gbondo9

I was just suggesting that better gear sounds better. Industry poducers make things sound better too - and If you can't get your sound to be identical to Nickleback - dont be discouraged - They spent thousands more than you to get that sound (even on a "modest" budget). With that being said - the rest of my post was an attempt to help and try to acheive a damn close sound.

There's a world of difference between getting a good sound and getting the exact sound as some group that spent a bazillion bucks on a recording. Hell, I've heard some of those megabux recordings with what I would consider mediocre to just plain crummy guitar tone. My advice is to quit trying to sound exactly like someone else and concentrate on getting the most out of what you have, and there's no shortcut to that.

[gbondo9]

Originally Posted by Hard2Hear

...Ive worked in some studios owned by popular bands that cost under $100k total and they get anything they want from it...

...Just ask any major studio owner....

H2H

I guess my advice was more directed towards the home recorder...here at homerecording.com....

Originally Posted by ggunn

concentrate on getting the most out of what you have, and there's no shortcut to that.

For what it's worth, I agree most enthusiasticly!

[Hard2Hear]

Originally Posted by gbondo9

I guess my advice was more directed towards the home recorder...here at homerecording.com....

Do you ever read in "The Rack" section? "home recording" is not what it once was.

BTW- being one of the longest time members here, I think I know what this site is about, thanks.

H2H

[gbondo9]

Originally Posted by Hard2Hear

BTW- being one of the longest time members here, I think I know what this site is about, thanks.

H2H

In that pissing contest - you win by 2 years. I guess that makes your posts more valid than mine...and what is this "rack" thing you speak of? can I buy one for my grass hut??

Listen - I’m not trying to start a war, or make enemies, or tell you that I’m right and your wrong. As a matter of fact - we both said a lot of the same things - which it feels like you missed. Your statement, "I'm sorry, but most of that is just a lame excuse for living with bad guitar tone" just kinda rubbed me the wrong way for some reason
Here are some statements from my original post - which you seem to have skimmed right over:
...Having a complete band with FAT bass and drums makes a HUGE difference in the sound of your guitar. ...
...Overdubbing, and studio magic, as stated before. Clean sound mixed with overdriven sound...
... I would try experimenting with mixing different signals and overdubbing, and make sure you have a nice fat bass behind you. Make sure you're using a guitar with humbuckers in it (that makes a huge difference).

You seem to think that I find it IMpossible to achieve good guitar tone without Millions of dollars, when ACTUALLY I just think that the professional studios have well paid, well trained engineers and producers with at least 100's of thousands of dollars (concession to you) worth of equip, thus the sounds you hear on the radio.

You yourself are dropping numbers for studios like 100k and equip like the U87 (which unfortunately - the vast majority of us here at homerecording.com do NOT own). Having been here for 3 years (but not 5) I have listened to sonusman, done assloads of recording, and been to all the threads on this board, I felt qualified to answer the question, which was, "how modern bands get their sound", and I tried to answer that, taking into consideration the kind of gear that the average home recorder has, and the average equipment that your mainstream rock band is using. I do not believe that great equip=great sound, nor do I believe that budget equip=shitty sound. If I believed that, I would not have replied.
If I came off as too negative – I’m sorry, it was not my intention.
Todd

[sile2001]

gbondo9's an optimist.
H2H is a realist.
Just leave it at that.

[Jacko]

thanks for the advice everyone, i really liked codmates idea about recording it clean, and then doubling it dirty. I think ill try that, ill also trying recording it with different guitars.

I guess what i really want is a sound thats dirty...yet clean like the modern mesa recordings. I love the tone of my amp, but its too muddy sounding with the gain i want, now i know what to do.

thanks

[Outlaws]

I think another aspect of the 'magic' is the adding of clean whole notes/chords (ya know...time...like a whole measure...or maybe just half a measure...) over the strumming.

That can and will do wonders.