Recording Classical Guitar

[Cyril]

Hello all,

New member, first post. OK, basically I am new to recording and have done as much reading as I can and need some direction. Pretend I am hiring you as a consultant to find the best solution for me. Here are my needs and my budget:

-- Recording solo classical guitar
-- Portability would be nice but not critical
-- Can't record to the computer but can use the computer for editing (basic editing needs such as adding a little reverb)
-- Want to keep it simple the fewest # of components
-- Obviously the best sound I can get is the most important thing outweighing everything else (except using the computer as the recorder). Since I am recording classical guitar I would want a clean sound, no recording hiss, and enough input level (?) to get decent volume on playback.
-- Budget is between $1000 - $1200

Ok, some ideas I had included:

-- Stand alone recorder like the Edirol R-1 or PMD 660 with a decent stereo mic, maybe the Rode NT-4
-- Stand alone recorders/mixers like Fostex or Tascam...with a decent mic and/or better preamp.

Alright, so you have been hired...fire away! And thanks much in advance.

Cyril

[Cyril]

No one is up to the challenge?

[LfO]

I've no experience with the kind of thing you want, but since no one else is responding, I'd go with Tweak's recommendation:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/rigs3.htm
About 3/4 of the way down the page, under :
"It's got to be simple keyboard/guitar/vocal/Studio--No Computer!"

Probably investigate stereo-micing, though. There are some relevant, current discussions in the mic forum.

Oh, and Welcome!

[XLR]

Suggest you look into the Marantz PMD670. $700

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MARPMD670

It’s got
- line in/out connectors so you can connect a high quality mic preamp to it if you prefer
- spdif in/out (stereo digital) so you can connect high quality converters to it if you prefer. The digital in and out get more useful the more you do with audio.
- microphone preamps built in that are decent quality and have phantom power which is needed by most mics used for recording guitar
- comes with a 68 MB flash card which you should replace with micro drive of 2 gigs. For recording 16bit/44.1 stereo wave files you get about 1 minute of recording for each 10 MB of space.
- USB file transfer after recording

It leaves you plenty for mic's, which are much more important to sound quality than is the recording device.

Tim

[dwillis45]

Originally Posted by Cyril

No one is up to the challenge?

You might get more responses if you were willing to use a computer in your setup. A significant number of home recording studios these days are based on computer recording and it would save time and potenial aggravation by eliminating a step in the editing process. (You wouldn't have to record and then transfer a track simply to add reverb, for example.) Those who aren't recording using a computer generally have stand-alone multitracks or a hard disk system like the Alesis combined with a mixer. It looks like you are in the market for a single track device and most folks around here are ardent multitrackers. That said, I would recommend one of the Fostex, Tascam, or Korg stand-alone multitrack recorders coupled with a decent condenser mic.


http://www.zzounds.com/cat--Hard-Dis...ecorders--2880

Even if you aren't recording drums, bass, keyboard, lead/rythm guitar and vocals, there are plenty of opportunities to take advantage of overdubs and multitracking. You may want to record a duet with another musician or double your guitar. It also might open you up to more complex arrangments instead of solo guitar.

You might look at something like the Fostex VF160 with a Shure SM 81.

[dwillis45]

Originally Posted by Cyril

Pretend I am hiring you as a consultant to find the best solution for me.

Consultant, huh! Give me you watch and I'll tell you what time it is! Or, better yet, tell me what recording system you want, and I'll write a report to your boss (wife or girlfriend?) justifying the purchase.

[Richard Monroe]

Cyril- I'll bring you in at about $800.
Korg PXR4 Pandora- about $300
1 128mb Smart Media card- under $50
M-Audio Audiophile 2496 soundcard- about $100 (forget this if you already have a good soundcard)
Sony ECMS-957 one point stereo mic- $250
Sennheiser HD 280m Pro headphones- under $100
1/8" mini to 2 male RCA cable- about $10

I use this combo frequently, and it can do what you are asking for, and a whole lot more. The Pandora is a pretty good 4-tracker, almost no noise. It's a tuner, a metronome, a compressor/limiter, a noisegate, a reverb machine, and much, much more. I am now running a Protools rig with a Digi002, an Avalon preamp, and $6,000 worth of mics, and I would never give up my Pandora, or that SONY mic. The entire rig will fit in a good sized fanny pack.- Richie

[Cyril]

Thanks everyone! You provided some excellent advice and recommendations.

Cyril

[fuzzyween]

I'm currently building a classical guitar studio as well. From all the research that I've done here's what I'd use on your budget:

AKG C451b microphone (400 dollars new on Ebay)
Grace Designs 101 mic preamp (500 dollars )
Fostex MR8 digital 8 track recorder (250 dollars)

The C451b has been a great microphone for recording on classical guitar so far. It really captures the high frequencies very well and hasn't added much noise to the mix.

The Grace 101 preamp is fairly well known as a high quality and low noise single channel preamp for a lot less money than most. It doesn't add any flavor to the sound. What you put in is what you get out, which is exactly what I wanted for classical guitar.

As for the MR8, it's pretty cheap, but doesn't have lots of extra frills that more expensive digital recorders will have. You can USB all the tracks to your computer for editing. Don't use any of the effects on it since they aren't so great. Make sure that you turn the preamps on the MR8 to 0 since they are noisey and the Grace preamp gives you more than enough amplification. The MR8 runs on flash memory as well, which means there's no annoying hard drive noise to muffle or EQ out during recording. In general, there are many different opinions on what kind of recorder to use and just pick whatever meets your needs. I've got multiple microphones recording at once now, so I've been looking for a recorder that can record 4 or more tracks simultaneously. My advice, don't go with the MR8-HD! I've had problems with them.

Have fun....

[XLR]

On the general subject of recording the classical guitar, I'd say that to get a realistic capture of the sound the most important single factor is room acoustics.

Mic's and pre's should be pretty accurate and the recording device should be reliable but the room has WAY more impact than most newbies realize. IME the mic's hear the guitar and the room as one huge instrument. Harsh highs and woofy lows are typical of untreated small rooms ... and attempting to fix them with EQ or compression introduces phase and dynamics problems that, to me, are just as undesirable as the problems they were fixing. For me it's worthwhile doing whatever's necessary to get the sound just the way I want it in the room.

Even with close mic'ing the room's got a big effect. I've never been satisfied with the sound of close mic'ing though on classical gtr. At a distance of a few feet the mic's pick up the "gelled" sound of the whole instrument... but at that distance they of course get even more room sound. A large high-ceiling'd room with a pleasant resonance makes it easy, but even a bedroom-size home studio can work with some treatment of reflective surfaces and woof-inducing room corners. Gobos are very helpful also.

I've got inexpensive knock-around gear and a high end recording rig also. Using my best room I can make a better recording with a low-cost setup like an MXL 603 into a US122/laptop than I can in an untreated spare bedroom with an 8 ft ceiling using a Schoeps pair/Great River pre/Lucid converters.

A few hours work and a couple hundred bucks on room treatment is the best return on investment you can get, IMO.

Tim

[fuzzyween]

Tim is definitely right on the money on room treatment. Break down and spend a few hundred bucks on some panels to balance the room out. Put the thicker Bass traps diagonally in the room corners and throw up a few panels on the walls and primary and secondary reflection points. I use Gik Acoustic panels which are cheap and do a good job. RealTraps is another great sound treatment, but they are expensive.

www.gikacoustics.com
www.realtraps.com

[.Jukka.]

I have a Studio Projects VTB1 mic pre amp, a SP C1 microphone and Boss Micro Br. So it's possible to record just mono recordings. Could somebody please tell me how a stereo recording practically works? Then I need another mic and also another pre amp. Is it possible to use two VTB1 pre amps?

[Richard Monroe]

Jukka, welcome to the board! You have asked a well phased siimple question that has a bunch of answers, because there are multiple versions. standard types- try a search on these terms- Coincedent mic'ing, also known as XY mic'ing. ORTF mic'ing, spaced stereo mic'ing. Those are the most common types. If you want to make your head hurt from thinking, more advanced arrays use binaural mic'ing, Blumlein, Decca Tree, and mid-side (or MS) mic'ing.

A search on those terms will reveal many ways to do it, but every system shares this in common- They are using 2 or more mics to try to create a model of what you would have heard if you were in the room when the sound was recorded. Don't let people tell you that "stereo" is an electronic option. It's a way to capture and playback sound, and there are a lot of other ways.

I personally love stereo recording, and would advise you to get the two best small diaphragm condenser mics you can afford, and two more or less identical channels of preamp. If you are starting from scratch, I would recommend an M-Audio DMP3, just for the 2 fairly clean channels. If you already have a VTB-1, a second one would work, but it would go just as well with the DMP-3. I might prefer the VTB-1 on guitars or percussion, for some sound shaping. Sing into the DMP3 or scream into the VTB1. It's all good.
For stereo mic'ing, I would start with XY, because it is fairly simple, and is a very useful array that has yielded kickass recordings for decades. Best of luck exploring stereo mic'ing.-Richie

[rayc]

Suss out Naiant Studios for their matched pair mics at extremely reasonable prices. They have excellent recording samples to inform your ear as well.

[transparencia]

There are the Stereo Electret Microphones, which you can use on your Boss Micro Br.