Stop from going out of tune

[tilinmyowngrave]

My friend wants to tune my toms to a specific pitch using a keyboard. But I'm worried that it'll go out of tune too quickly, and retuning them would be a bitch. Is there anything that coudl prevent them from going out of tune, and where can I buy them?

[PhilGood]

Why does your friend want to do that???!

Drums (toms at least) are NON-pitch specific. They are not supposed to be tuned to a specific note, but rather a tone which resonates best with the shell's pitch. You need to explain to him that tuning a drum means getting all the lugs to the same pitch, not getting the drum to a specific note.

Unless you're talking concert toms or single headed toms. Even then...why?? Are you going to play a melody??

[my2cents]

even if you get all the lugs tightened properly and somehow lock them in place so they can't come loose the head will still most likely de-tune itself as a result of stretching, pulling itself from the hoop, etc.

maybe you need some timpanis.

[tilinmyowngrave]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Why does your friend want to do that???!

Drums (toms at least) are NON-pitch specific. They are not supposed to be tuned to a specific note, but rather a tone which resonates best with the shell's pitch. You need to explain to him that tuning a drum means getting all the lugs to the same pitch, not getting the drum to a specific note.

Unless you're talking concert toms or single headed toms. Even then...why?? Are you going to play a melody??

No, hes just into doing pointless experiments. He once tried to play slap bass with drum sticks. Plus, if I argue, he will be disappointed. So basically, I'll let him waste 4 hrs tuning the toms, and when his plan fails, I can laugh at him and make him retune them. Problem is, I have 2 13" toms, and I think I should sell one, because even if you tune them to different pitches, they have different sustains, so it sounds weird

[Farview]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Why does your friend want to do that???!

Drums (toms at least) are NON-pitch specific. They are not supposed to be tuned to a specific note, but rather a tone which resonates best with the shell's pitch. You need to explain to him that tuning a drum means getting all the lugs to the same pitch, not getting the drum to a specific note.

Unless you're talking concert toms or single headed toms. Even then...why?? Are you going to play a melody??

I do this all the time. If there is a lot of tom work in a song, I will tune the toms to a scale that works with the key of the song. This sort of thing is more important with kits that have a lot of toms. If I'm in a hurry or it is a small kit, I tune them in fourths.

Who ever told you that drums were pitchless instruments was mistaken. Tuning the kick to the key of the song has been done on countless albums. It really makes it sit better in the mix. It is details like this that go into making a really good sounding album.

DW, for example, stamps the inside of the shell to tell you what note the shell is.

[Farview]

To answer the original question, as long as the note you pick isn't too far away from the note of the shell, it will stay in tune pretty well. I saw these little nylon things that you put on your lugs so they don't turn. They were at guitar center.

[Warhead]

Toms being non - pitch specific isn't always true. I find that if you tune them low in pitch it matters less. Recently I had to Drumagog replace all of the toms on a song because the tom rolls weren't jiving with the bass because they were about 1/2 step apart from each other and it was pulling the overall tune of the song out and real sour.

Using popular notes like E, G, A, D etc can help but it's good to have them inside of the scale used when possible.

War

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by Farview

I do this all the time. If there is a lot of tom work in a song, I will tune the toms to a scale that works with the key of the song. This sort of thing is more important with kits that have a lot of toms. If I'm in a hurry or it is a small kit, I tune them in fourths.

Who ever told you that drums were pitchless instruments was mistaken. Tuning the kick to the key of the song has been done on countless albums. It really makes it sit better in the mix. It is details like this that go into making a really good sounding album.

DW, for example, stamps the inside of the shell to tell you what note the shell is.

I can understand spacial differences, but if you're talking "I tune my 12" to B flat" c'mon. That would be utterly rediculous!! You will always be sharp or flat and the pitch will bend. You can get it close, but don't beat it to death. I've done alot of studio work and a lot of other percussion work over the years (22 to be precise) and I can tell you that if you're tuning your toms to specific notes, you're wasting your time. Ever listen to a live album? does the drummer retune his kit to match every song? No! Does it matter? No!

Talk to guys like Dave Weckl, Simon Phillips, Steve Gadd, Steve Smith, etc. and ask them if the retune the kit for a specific song. The answer is No! Any session cat will tell his tech "make 'em sound good."

[Farview]

One of the reason why a lot of guys use triggers live is exactly for that reason.

The guys that you site are some of the greatest drummers in the world, but they don't do a lot of drumming on stuff where the song is most important. They (for the most part) tend to be in situations where the point of the song is to showcase 'extreme musicianship'. There usually isn't enough space in the arrangement to let anything hang long enough for it to matter.

Maybe it's just a metal thing.

[mrface2112]

absolutely drums are pitch specific! every shell has a fundamental tone that it "likes" to resonate at. you will get the best sound (maximum resonance, etc) if you tune your heads so that they are tuned to that pitch. to find this pitch, take off the heads and all the hardware, balance the shell on the tip of a finger, and strike it hard using a finger on your other hand. listen to what note the shell produces. tune to that note. (that requires you being able to tell what that note is, of course )

in general, i tune my toms so that they are a 3rd or 5th apart, and that when 2 are struck together, they form notes in a chord. usually i strive for an A or E chord, just to keep it "tidy". and i use my keyboard or acoustic guitar as a reference.

FWIW, DW has been known to match its sets (and sometimes notes the fundamental note inside the shell) so that the fundamental notes of the toms all work together.

you've gotta keep drums in tune just like you would a guitar. otherwise, just slap a buncha duct tape on the heads to muffle em dead and don't whine when they sound like crap.


cheers,
wade

PS--and yes, LOTS of (predominantly) jazz drummers will (would) retune their drums/toms inbetween songs in recording sessions to match the key the song is in. or at least, they would in bygone days. most drummers these days don't, though, b/c they're brain-dead neanderthals who couldn't tune a drum if their life depended on it. *insert drummer joke here*

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by mrface2112

most drummers these days don't, though, b/c they're brain-dead neanderthals who couldn't tune a drum if their life depended on it. *insert drummer joke here*

I'll be sure to tell Dave Weckl that on wednesday...

[Farview]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Talk to guys like Dave Weckl, Simon Phillips, Steve Gadd, Steve Smith, etc. and ask them if the retune the kit for a specific song. The answer is No! Any session cat will tell his tech "make 'em sound good."

Any good session cat would do what ever the producer told him to, including retuning the drums for every tune. What they do on their own would only be relevent when the drummer is the producer.

[PhilGood]

Originally Posted by Farview

Any good session cat would do what ever the producer told him to, including retuning the drums for every tune. What they do on their own would only be relevent when the drummer is the producer.

Very true!

I just think tuning is more of a "ballpark" in tonality rather than hitting an exact pitch. Its complimentary, but not critical.

And since we agree the best resonance comes from getting the head to the shell's pitch, then show me a drum company that tunes the shells to a specific note. Drifting away from the shell's resonant pitch to a note for a specific tune only degridates the sound of the drum. And what do you do when the temperature or humidity in the room changes? The pitch sure isn't gonna stay at C.

[juststartingout]

Of course you should tune your drums to a given scale and to exact notes. When people say 'tune them to where they sound good', they are tuning them to a given scale. That is why they sound good!!

I am a guitar player for 30 years that took up drums. What I found is that most drummers don't understand, or don't care about scales. But when a kit is in tune to a given scale, they sound so much better with a given song.

Most groups play in 2-3 scales, mainly due to the fact that it's what the singer can sing well in. If you are in tune with a few of the basic notes common to all the scales, then you won't have to change the tuning for each song.

[Simman]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Why does your friend want to do that???!

Drums (toms at least) are NON-pitch specific. They are not supposed to be tuned to a specific note, but rather a tone which resonates best with the shell's pitch. You need to explain to him that tuning a drum means getting all the lugs to the same pitch, not getting the drum to a specific note.

Unless you're talking concert toms or single headed toms. Even then...why?? Are you going to play a melody??

Maybe he wants to emulate Terry Bozzio.

[Dani Pace]

To me, it is the difference between the pitch of one drum to the next that is critical. You want variety, otherwise you would only need one drum. It is the balance of pitch (for me, usually 4ths) that can make a kit sound better. Each kit will have it's own sound so the perfect tuning on one set wont be the exact same for another. Tune them so that they all compliment one another and the cymbals. Even different drummers will make the same kit sound differently (without retuning) so if your friend wants to spend the time tuning and retuning....let him, unless of course you are pressed for time.

[PhilGood]

I thought I'd throw another 2 cents in on this one, seeing as I just asked Dave Weckl this afternoon whether he tunes his toms to a specific note or pitch. His answer was "No". He said he may adjust the tuning of the snare if it seems to fit the song better, but does not tune his drums to notes that fit the song. He has never been asked to either. He does however tune the drums about a 3rd or 4th apart.

I have an email out to Simon Phillips asking the same question, but he usually doesn't check email until about 9:00am. I'm awaiting his response.

[Farview]

It is possible that in your world (including mr. weckl, mr. phillips, mr. smith, etc...) that this isn't done. In my world, it is commonplace.

It's a genre thing, it has to be. Every time I get a drummer in a metal band in here that is playing wildly inappropriate stuff that takes away from the song, they list Dave Weckl, Simon Phillips, Steve Gadd, or Steve Smith as influences. Some things don't translate from one style to another.

[PhilGood]

Well, Simon hasn't answered yet. Its quite possible this is something he does do. I've never asked him before. I thought I would ask since the topic is up for discussion.

Just because someone lists a drummer as an influence doesn't mean they can follow them or play like them. Dave was interesting in this interview. He said drummers come up to him all the time and ask him to show them a new lick. He'll say No, that's not what you need. We talked extensively about why its neccessary to lay back and play the time and fill only where its called for. He only goes nuts if its his music or his time to solo. On someone else's track he does his job.

The next drummer you get that plays over the top and lists them as influences, tell them their influences know when to play what's needed, not always what's fancy!

[ez_willis]

Listen to the first Lenny Kravitz record. He tunes his toms all over that album.

[PhilGood]

Huh! Well, I guess Simon is up late tonight! Here's his reply:

"I don't tune them to specific pitches but somehow they always come out the same. Tom 1 to 2 is an interval of a 4th and then the rest are usually minor 3rds. I can always play the American National Anthem on the first 4 rack toms!!!"

The search continues...

[Farview]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Just because someone lists a drummer as an influence doesn't mean they can follow them or play like them. Dave was interesting in this interview. He said drummers come up to him all the time and ask him to show them a new lick. He'll say No, that's not what you need. We talked extensively about why its neccessary to lay back and play the time and fill only where its called for. He only goes nuts if its his music or his time to solo. On someone else's track he does his job.

The next drummer you get that plays over the top and lists them as influences, tell them their influences know when to play what's needed, not always what's fancy!

You know that and I know that. Drummers (I am one) aren't always so bright. Especially ones that are trying to 'prove' themselves or are desperately not trying to get pigeon-holed as a 'metal' drummer. I've got 4 or 5 long term clients that drive me nuts with this shit. In fact, the whole reason I started making drum samples was to replace these guys' stuff. All of them refuse to dampen the drums AND they insist on tuning the drums so that they ring forever...including the kick. They seem to be confusing ring and resonance.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by PhilGood

Huh! Well, I guess Simon is up late tonight! Here's his reply:

"I don't tune them to specific pitches but somehow they always come out the same. Tom 1 to 2 is an interval of a 4th and then the rest are usually minor 3rds. I can always play the American National Anthem on the first 4 rack toms!!!"

The search continues...

So he doesn't whip out a strobe tuner, but I'll bet you that they are tuned to specific notes.

[mrface2112]

Originally Posted by Farview

So he doesn't whip out a strobe tuner, but I'll bet you that they are tuned to specific notes.

exactly--if they are a 4th and/or minor 3rd apart.....and he can play the National Anthem on them, then INDEED he can play a melody on them. (I'm referring back to the 2nd post in this thread from phil stating "Even then...why?? Are you going to play a melody??"--the answer is "yes, maybe i will!" )

And it follows that if you can play a melody (and they're a minor 3rd apart), then your drums are, in fact, tuned to specific pitches. even if he doesn't intentionally tune tom 1 to E, tom 2 to B, etc., or KNOW what the pitches are.....it's a rule of musical theory that you have to have specific pitches in order to have the things a 3rd apart.

Thanks to both Dave Weckl and Simon Phillips for proving my point (and for Phil chatting with them to confirm that). case closed, IMO.


cheers,
wade

[PhilGood]

I don't think your point was proven at all. It was implied that you tune the drums to match the song. I just confirmed that wasn't the case. There's a HUGE difference between intervals and exact pitch. You can have a drum that is tuned between c and b sharp and base interval from that, and they may be ballpark intervals.

Everyone here said they compare their toms to a keyboard or match a specific note to go with a song. It was also implied that pros will cange the tuning in a session. Doesn't seem to be the case for me...

And just because your drums END UP at a specific pitch, it doesn't mean it was intentional, as Simon replied. He does not actively SEEK OUT the pitch, it just ends up there. That's a big difference from pulling out a tuner.

I tune them until my ear likes them. Maybe I end up at 4ths. That doesn't mean I don't stop tuning until they are EXACT 4ths and 3rds etc.

And if you're implying I'm just a stupid drummer, let me inform you of my training. Been playing drums for 22 years. I've played guitar and bass for 16 years. Before drums I played french horn and trumpet for 10. I'm a classicly trained vocalist and can sight read.