Stupid question about Red Book

[Garry Sharp]

If I just burn an audio CD with one track on my PC using the standard Nero programme - would that be "Red Book compliant?" Told you it was a stupid question

[Samantha C.]

If you burn it as audio (not data) and it's 16bit, 44.1kHz then you are.

[Massive Master]

I dunno 'bout that... I've seen plenty of burns that were DAO-16/44.1 that weren't compliant...

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If it's just a single song CD-R and it plays in every machine he puts it in, who cares if it's Redbook?

Less flippantly put, are there ever any serious instances where Redbook compliance on a "scratch" CD-R like that is relevant? For example, are there ever any instances where a mastering house/dup plant might actually want to receive a single-track CD, and if so, would any such compliance matter?

G.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

If it's just a single song CD-R and it plays in every machine he puts it in, who cares if it's Redbook?

Less flippantly put, are there ever any serious instances where Redbook compliance on a "scratch" CD-R like that is relevant? For example, are there ever any instances where a mastering house/dup plant might actually want to receive a single-track CD, and if so, would any such compliance matter?

G.

who cares how many songs it is? if he could still end up sending out demos that don't play on everyones machine...

[SouthSIDE Glen]

My point is I have yet to burn or receive a burnt CD-R that was created using any of the major "non Redbook" burners like Roxio, Nero, etc. that had trouble playing on anything from a Discman to a DVD player where the trouble was caused by being non-compliance to Redbook spec. In fact, in the past two years or so, I don't think I've burnt or received a single CD-R non-redbooked drink coaster.

I'm not dissing the importance of Redbook; all my actual final demo and pre-master CD-Rs I make to strict spec with CD Architect, and I would have it no other way. But for something that's not being sent for pro mastering/duplication and something (like a one-song CD) where things like track spacing and such just don't exist, it seems to me that the quality of media, hardware and software have gotten to the point where the *necessity* of checking for Redbook has pretty much evaporated.

Of course there's still bad CD-R media out there, and CD-RW still pretty much sucks, and there's still people who try to push the capacities and burn speeds too fast, and have trouble making proper multi-session/multi-format discs. But as long as you take the needle out of your arm before you burn, it seems like the days of your "average" burning software making a standard audio disc that doesn't play in 100% of playback machines has pretty much disappeared.

G.

[IronFlippy]

The problem isn't usually with consumer devices, but with pro decks. I have no idea why, but that's what I've read.

[Garry Sharp]

OK, thanks chaps - it won't be but it doesn't matter seems to be the answer

[Massive Master]

No doubt that if it plays on just about anything, it doesn't matter too much - IF it's not going to replication.

And yes - Pro decks can be VERY picky about what's in them. I've seen (an been part of) that more times than I care to remember...

I do a lot of work with a performing arts facility - Lots of dance shows & stuff with lots of "stage dads" burning discs that won't cue up while a dozen dancers are onstage as the lights come up in front of a full-house - Makes for some pretty thick discomfort all around. And pissed off parents - Whoa... When they get in your face after little Sally got nervous and screwed up her routine - Of course, they blame it on the guy who hit's "GO" and they don't want to hear anything about a crappy disc that wasn't burned right...

Some of the new decks are getting a little more "loosened up" lately - The NEW professional Marantz decks will eat almost anything - Ones from just a few years ago will spit it right back at you. Or just start playing some other track... in the middle... maybe...

[7string]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Of course there's still bad CD-R media out there, and CD-RW still pretty much sucks, and there's still people who try to push the capacities and burn speeds too fast, and have trouble making proper multi-session/multi-format discs. But as long as you take the needle out of your arm before you burn, it seems like the days of your "average" burning software making a standard audio disc that doesn't play in 100% of playback machines has pretty much disappeared.

G.

This is something that I've wondered about for a long time and have not asked. And since you brought it up, I'll ask. Does burn speed matter? I mean, I can understand using the fastest tape speed to put as little information as possible to any one sector of tape, but what about CD burning? If burn speed does indeed matter, why? And what is a good burn speed?

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by 7string

This is something that I've wondered about for a long time and have not asked. And since you brought it up, I'll ask. Does burn speed matter? I mean, I can understand using the fastest tape speed to put as little information as possible to any one sector of tape, but what about CD burning? If burn speed does indeed matter, why? And what is a good burn speed?

My understanding of it is that in and of itself, burn speed is irrelevant. As long as the ones and zeros get etched accurately enough so that they can be read properly by playback machines (even the touchy Marantz's that John mentioned ), what speed they are actually etched at does not matter.

What is at issue with burn speed is if the hardware and the media can handle it. I have two burners here, both of them TDK VeloCDs which have performed flawlessly for me. The older one burns CD-Rs at 24x and the newer one at 48X, and I have never had a problem burning solid Redbook at either speed on either burner.

The key (for me) is that I make sure I follow specifications on the media I use. The four general rules for me are:

1.) Stick with brands tested and recommended by the manufacturer - though I have been known to use brands of known very high quality that were not on the mfr.'s list. But those are rare qualified exceptions to the rule.

2.) Do not exceed the minute/MB rating on the disc, even though many can be "pushed" farther than that. I'll try - when it's an option available to me - to keep the time on my discs below 70min regardless of the rating. This is usually not an issue for the type of projects I normally get.

3.) Do not use disc rated at a speed lower than the machine's default burn speed. I'm currently using a batch of Memorex 80min/700mb CD-Rs rated at 48x in both my burners and have had nary a problem. But I would not use anything rated at lower than 48x in my faster burner.

4.) Most important: research the burners that are available and check out test reports, reviews, etc. Some bleeding edge spec'd drives are of lesser quality than others at their highest-rated speed and/or have drive problems on some computer configurations. Don't go out and buythe latest 1000x burner that's stacked at the door of your local dealer with a big red sale price on it unless you know that it's got a good track record on your machine.

Keep it sane like the above and burn speed should not be much of a problem.

G.

[7string]

Thanks G.! Clear and concise as usual... I couldn't for the life of me see where burn speed would come into play but I had to ask. I just use the default myself. The only problem I have is getting them to play in other stereos around my house. I have a HUGE dust problem in this little village so cleaning them would probably be the first order of business. Well, actually, finding the TIME to clean them would be the first order of business!

[Massive Master]

For reference discs, it's not worth it to wait. But if a disc is being used as a production master, I've found the most accurate beta and lowest jitter to be at around 20% of a drive's maximum speed (around 8 or 12x on a 52x drive or there about).

I haven't tested dozens and dozens of drives or anything, but from rough tests over several units, there seems to be a sort of "burning efficiency window" at around 8-16x on fast (48-52x) drives.

[mixandmaster]

My experience is roughly the same as John's.

I've always wondered if it's in the data transfer BETWEEN the hard drive/CD burner instead of a mechanical issue with the burner...some type of data "dropout". No way to really know, I guess.

[Massive Master]

I'm not nearly qualified to even speculate like this, but if I had to come up with a thesis...

The disc is spinning and an essentially viscous or gelatinous substance is being hardened by pulses of light.

The speed of that spinning (and the centrifugal force caused by it) has GOT to effect something like that...

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

I'm not nearly qualified to even speculate like this, but if I had to come up with a thesis...

The disc is spinning and an essentially viscous or gelatinous substance is being hardened by pulses of light.

The speed of that spinning (and the centrifugal force caused by it) has GOT to effect something like that...

With the exact same discalimer as you ...

When you're talking about "jitter rates" in the burnt CD, I'd tend to think that along with the media being an issue as you stated - in fact being the biggest variable in the equation, I think - one of the root causes would be similar (in an oblique way) to other types of jitter; it's basically a timing problem caused by design tolerance issues in the hardware. Accuracies in the internal "clock" in the burner that sets the timing for firing the laser, emissions slew rate properties of the laser diodes themselves, and even (though probably to a lesser extent) accuracy of the rotational motor speed will all have an effect on how "regularly" the burner brands the data into the disc.

At slower burn speeds, the tloerances are not being pushed towards the design limits and it's "easier" for the burner to hit the target. The faster you burn, the more critical the "timing accuracy" of all these individual components becomes. The higher quality burners (or at least the ones that aren't being pushed by the marketing department to a spec that may make the engineering department cringe) have tighter tolerances at the upper end of their performance specs and can be burnt faster with lower error rates than the others.

"Dropout" in the data bus between the mobo and the burner should not be an issue any more than it is between the mobo and your hard drives (unless there's an actual design problem with the burner). Todays PC platforms and data buses are fast enough to handle D1 video streams *with* stereo audio without any dropped frames, and those siignals are an entire magniture or two more demanding than audio only; and we know that data buses like Firewire, USB, UWSCSI, and even EIDE/ATA can handle multichannel audio data rates without even breaking a sweat.

G.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

My point is I have yet to burn or receive a burnt CD-R that was created using any of the major "non Redbook" burners like Roxio, Nero, etc. that had trouble playing on anything from a Discman to a DVD player where the trouble was caused by being non-compliance to Redbook spec. In fact, in the past two years or so, I don't think I've burnt or received a single CD-R non-redbooked drink coaster.

man I wish I could say that was true for me. I recently sent out a batch of demos to clubs and a few came back saying they didn't play. man is that embarassing. then again I bought my burner like 5 years ago...

[mixandmaster]

I said what I said from this observation (based on llimited, non-scientific experience)...I've had better burns with my Plextor premium with files from an ATA drive than over the firewire bus regardless of the speed. I've only used the Taiyo Yudens on this drive, and haven't bothered to document it, but I've checked it enough times to always put any files to be burned on one of my ATA drives and not one of my firewire drives.

Not that this in any way disproves what Glen or John says. It's just an observation.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by mixandmaster

I said what I said from this observation (based on llimited, non-scientific experience)...I've had better burns with my Plextor premium with files from an ATA drive than over the firewire bus regardless of the speed. I've only used the Taiyo Yudens on this drive, and haven't bothered to document it, but I've checked it enough times to always put any files to be burned on one of my ATA drives and not one of my firewire drives.

Not that this in any way disproves what Glen or John says. It's just an observation.

I can't comment on a Firewire burner as I have not used one. All I can contribute to that is that my 24x VeloCD is an internal ATA device in my tower and my 48X VeloCD is an external USB 2.0 device used with my laptop, and I (knock wood) have been fortunate to have had excellent luck with both of them. I have attributed it as a combination of good quality drives with good matching media.

Of course now that I've posted this, the other karma shoe is going to drop and my next 10 CD-Rs are going to burst into flames...

G.

[7string]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

For reference discs, it's not worth it to wait. But if a disc is being used as a production master, I've found the most accurate beta and lowest jitter to be at around 20% of a drive's maximum speed (around 8 or 12x on a 52x drive or there about).

I haven't tested dozens and dozens of drives or anything, but from rough tests over several units, there seems to be a sort of "burning efficiency window" at around 8-16x on fast (48-52x) drives.

So you're saying we SHOULD burn at slower speeds? Now I'm confoozed. I need a beer...

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by 7string

So you're saying we SHOULD burn at slower speeds? Now I'm confoozed. I need a beer...

I think the lesson might be that if you want to play it safe and go conservative, burn your important discs at somewhere around 16x. So what if it takes 5 minutes instead of 30 seconds? Use that time to got to the bathroom, re-fill your coffee, check up on your e-mail, or whatever. No biggie.

But what I feel is important in the context of this forum is that there is no "magic number". John's number, which I'll take to heart, is based upon his quality experience and is probably a good average across many combinations of brands and media. My explanation was based upon my experience with my burners and those of the associates around me. It may be a combination of a little luck and a lot of judicious choice of equipment, media, software and technique, but I can tell you that my experience in error rates is a lot lower than the drek that John receives.

So I guess that unless/until you can actually get some solid data and experience on just how well your burner works at different speeds and which media works better or worse with it at those speeds, that to play it safe and use the 8-16x figure is probably not a terrible idea.

G.