unpleasant high end in vocals

[Zed10R]

Hey peeps, mixmasters and audiophiles,

I've been playing with an old (late 90's) AKG dynamic mic that resembles the new D3800 series. I don't know what model it is, it just looks like those. I'm trying to use it as a back up vocal mic to get somewhat thin, but not brittle or piercing high note "aahhh" style backing vocals. I succeded in getting a pretty good transparent (for a dynamic) tone out of it, but it has this certain unpleasant high end shrillness that I just cannot isolate and can't stand. It is the mic cause it doesn't happen with an SM57. I'm not using the 57 'cause it's too punchy. Any guess as to what frequncy I should be looking at?

One last interesting thing - If I'm listening with my headphones (Audio Technica) the backing vocals sound PERFECT but when I listen through the monitors ( M audio) that's when I hear the shrillness. I tend to trust the monitors more than the headphones.....for obvious reasons.....and I have not tried to mixdown and listen on my car or home stereo yet.

Ideas??

Thanks!!

[TFunkadelic]

The low end of the human vocal range is between 500 and 1000 hz. The upper end is around 3000 hz. I'd guess you're looking at 2500ish-2800.

[Zed10R]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

The low end of the human vocal range is between 500 and 1000 hz. The upper end is around 3000 hz. I'd guess you're looking at 2500ish-2800.

Thank you...that's EXACTLY the kind of technical wisdom I have not yet attained. I appreciate your input....

[AGCurry]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

The low end of the human vocal range is between 500 and 1000 hz. The upper end is around 3000 hz. I'd guess you're looking at 2500ish-2800.

Excuse me? The low E string on a guitar is approx. 80 hz, and I can sing it.

To fix with EQ, just cut and sweep until you find the offending range.

[Zed10R]

thanks...well at least I have a starting point to begin sweeping. I'm having difficulty in associating a hz# with what I am hearing. My mind just seperates everything into lows, mids, and highs. If I need to isolate any certain frequency, I clulessly fumble around untill I happen upon it. That takes too much time and I end up posting a question like this one.

Thank you both for your input.

[Garry Sharp]

It will probably be the harmonics causing the shrillness, rather than the fundamentals. Our female singer can become harsh, and careful mic placement is important. If the mic is above the singer (looking down, as it were) you will get more soft palate, whereas if the mic is pointing up at the mouth you will get more hard palate and a harsher sound.

[TFunkadelic]

Pitch matching and frequency matching are two very different things. Here are some things to read:

http://www.kodachrome.org/salt/sunderst.htm

http://www.eaw.com/technology/proprietary/va.html

http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/Multimedia/node271.html

I have extracted relevant information incase you don't wish to read them yourself.

"Human hearing and voice

Range is about 20 Hz to 20 kHz, most sensitive at 2 to 4 KHz.
Dynamic range (quietest to loudest) is about 96 dB
Normal voice range is about 500 Hz to 2 kHz
Low frequencies are vowels and bass
High frequencies are consonants"

"Frequency Range of the Human Voice

Voice range covers 300 Hz to 3500 Hz


Most energy concentrated below 1000 Hz"

"Early in his career, Kenton realized that a minimum of three subsystems was required to achieve realistic reproduction of either speech or music. He was most concerned with the frequency range 250 Hz to 3k Hz - the human vocal range."

[Zed10R]

Originally Posted by Garry Sharp

It will probably be the harmonics causing the shrillness, rather than the fundamentals. Our female singer can become harsh, and careful mic placement is important. If the mic is above the singer (looking down, as it were) you will get more soft palate, whereas if the mic is pointing up at the mouth you will get more hard palate and a harsher sound.

Yes....I see EXACTLY what you mean. The fundamental note itself is spot on and correct.

My mic placement it somewhat like off axis micing a speaked cab. The singer (me ) and the mic are at about a 45 degee angle with about 1 foot of distance between them. Straight on placement gives too much punch for what I want, and if I place it above or below the mouth, the sound is not defined enough. If I place it any father away, the clarity degrades again. So where it is placed is the best I have been ale to find, and to me this sounds really good. There is just that occasional shrillness. I'd like to not be encouraging the problem with mic placement. Does anyone see my placement as a possible CAUSE of this? BTW - I have taken my own advice and practiced the notes over and over to make sure I am not the source of the offending sounds.

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

Pitch matching and frequency matching are two very different things. Here are some things to read:

http://www.kodachrome.org/salt/sunderst.htm

http://www.eaw.com/technology/proprietary/va.html

http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/Dave/Multimedia/node271.html

I have extracted relevant information incase you don't wish to read them yourself.

"Human hearing and voice

Range is about 20 Hz to 20 kHz, most sensitive at 2 to 4 KHz.
Dynamic range (quietest to loudest) is about 96 dB
Normal voice range is about 500 Hz to 2 kHz
Low frequencies are vowels and bass
High frequencies are consonants"

"Frequency Range of the Human Voice

Voice range covers 300 Hz to 3500 Hz


Most energy concentrated below 1000 Hz"

"Early in his career, Kenton realized that a minimum of three subsystems was required to achieve realistic reproduction of either speech or music. He was most concerned with the frequency range 250 Hz to 3k Hz - the human vocal range."

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! Kind Sir!!

[Garry Sharp]

This is very interesting. A couple of things to consider (and apologies if you know all this already). First it's a shame that different mic placements don't work for you. Does the shrillness just occur on certain notes? If so, you could try moving your mouth down just on those notes. Just to reinforce the point about hard vs soft palate, my wife, who is an excellent singer, can make her speaking voice go from soft and warm to cutting sharply across a crowded room without changing the volume - she just projects it off her hard palate. It's quite a party trick - she's had a lot of formal training.

The second point is about hand held dynamics, which a live sound engineer demonstrated to me during a sound check of a biggish rig last year. All these mics have presence peaks, which vary between manufacturers, but the reason is to enhance clarity and also to help the voice cut through, it dates back to the days of low powered PA systems. I would strongly suspect that the peak in your AKG dynamic is just in the wrong place, causing this problem. Some female singers, for example, sound absolutely dreadful through an SM58 for exactly this reason - the presence peak is often great for a male singer but makes some females sound very harsh.

Anyway, good luck

[Zed10R]

Originally Posted by Garry Sharp

This is very interesting. A couple of things to consider (and apologies if you know all this already). First it's a shame that different mic placements don't work for you. Does the shrillness just occur on certain notes? If so, you could try moving your mouth down just on those notes. Just to reinforce the point about hard vs soft palate, my wife, who is an excellent singer, can make her speaking voice go from soft and warm to cutting sharply across a crowded room without changing the volume - she just projects it off her hard palate. It's quite a party trick - she's had a lot of formal training.

The second point is about hand held dynamics, which a live sound engineer demonstrated to me during a sound check of a biggish rig last year. All these mics have presence peaks, which vary between manufacturers, but the reason is to enhance clarity and also to help the voice cut through, it dates back to the days of low powered PA systems. I would strongly suspect that the peak in your AKG dynamic is just in the wrong place, causing this problem. Some female singers, for example, sound absolutely dreadful through an SM58 for exactly this reason - the presence peak is often great for a male singer but makes some females sound very harsh.

Anyway, good luck

It sucks that I cannot fix this with positioning. The shrillness occurs within a specific range, not specific notes, words, or phrases. Above or below that range and it's just not there. What I am running into now is if I shelve out the frequencies just in the section that is effected, I am chaging the overall sound and it no longer matches...it sounds like a poorly done punch in. If I shelve out the problem in the entire track (so it will at least sound consistent), the parts that are perfect as they are loose the qualities that I need them to have. This is sucking. I'll try re tracking the whole thing and adjusting my tone (I'll try to go "soft" as you said - but I've done this about 50 times already) and tilt my head away, as you said, and see if I can come across an acceptable compromise.

Thanks for the help.

[Garry Sharp]

Yes, i thought you'd have difficulties trying to EQ it. Can't you get hold of a different mic?

[KonradG]

It is the mic cause it doesn't happen with an SM57. I'm not using the 57 'cause it's too punchy. Any guess as to what frequncy I should be looking at?

Will singing lead/backup vocals with a soft voice with whispery lows (jack johnson, john mayer) and powerful highs (incubus, sublime) work on an sm 57? i have a windscreen and i was wondering if getting a small diaphram will hurt this style of singing? im researching this right now, just seein if i can get a head start.

[FALKEN]

I would be looking around 12khz.

Also....backing vocals usually need ambience...

I would add a far mic.

[HWB]

"The low end of the human vocal range is between 500 and 1000 hz."

I found this comment and the others pertaining to how low the human voice can go very interesting. I am a BASS singer. I sang in a Southern Gospel Quartet for many years. I happen to have a very low voice, I can hit 49 hertz pretty much any day. 49 hertz is the lowest G on the piano. I have hit F many times as well.

Most people in secular music have no idea about BASS singing. JD Sumner, who was the lowest bass singer in the world (Guiness Book Of Records) could sing a double low C...32 hertz. JD Sumner and his group, The Stamps Quartet sand backup for Elvis from 1970 till his death.

Southern Gospel Music has many great bass singers who can sing low notes. Once I was at a sound check at a large venue and the guys from the sound company were arguing with me that no human could sing below 150 hertz. I went on stage with my Neumann KM84 mic and did a slide down to low G...49 hertz, and shook the sub woofers . The lighting guy was up in the roof on his lighting rig. He almost fell off his perch. Needless to say, they didn't argue with me anymore. I also made them take the 80 hertz cut off of the EQ. They agreed to after they heard me prove my point.

I thought some of you may find this interesting.


HWB

[TFunkadelic]

A. Do you have a recording of yourself or someone singing at these frequencies? If so, I request that you email it to me.

B. Or find research based information that proves your statements.

[HWB]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

A. Do you have a recording of yourself or someone singing at these frequencies? If so, I request that you email it to me.

B. Or find research based information that proves your statements.

The answer to both of the above questions is YES and I would be happy to do so.

[AGCurry]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

A. Do you have a recording of yourself or someone singing at these frequencies? If so, I request that you email it to me.

B. Or find research based information that proves your statements.

It's science, man - well established facts.

As I said early in the thread, the low E on a guitar is about 80 hz. Most mature males can sing that note, with varying degrees of power.

The basso profundo - of which J.D. Sumner is the most profundo - can generally hit an A below that, which is 60 hz.

[Middleman]

I would put a parametric EQ on the track and sweep it to identify the troubling range as stated above. Then just cut the signal in the area of the range.

One other thing, if you are using a transformer based preamp, an old one maybe, then the transformer may be singing with the interaction of the mic you are using. Very common in older gear.

Next try putting a little compression on the signal with an external compressor. Your singer may be hitting a resonant peak characteristic of the mic.

[HWB]

Originally Posted by AGCurry

It's science, man - well established facts.

As I said early in the thread, the low E on a guitar is about 80 hz. Most mature males can sing that note, with varying degrees of power.

The basso profundo - of which J.D. Sumner is the most profundo - can generally hit an A below that, which is 60 hz.

You're right, it is well established facts, but only to anyone who is familiar with bass singing. Unfortunately, many people in the secular music world never heard REAL bass singing or maybe NO bass singing at all.

As far as JD Sumner goes, he was recorded on the song "Blessed Assurance" singing a double low C, which is 32 hertz and was in the Guiness Book Of Records as the lowest bass singer in the world. He also hit that note on Elvis presley's song "Way Down." Any GOOD bass singer can sing a low C which is 64 hertz. I sing low G on stage which is 49 hertz. I have sang lower notes on occasion. Anyone can look up "JD Sumner" or "JD Sumner and the Stamps Quartet" on the net and find a wealth of information on his amazing bass voice.

[HWB]

Here is a brief segment from an article about JD SUMNER. It mentions that he hit double low C and was in the Guiness Book Of Records.



In the mid-'60's J.D. bought the "Stamps Music Company," changing their name.

He and his group, "The Stamps Quartet," began performing with his long-time friend Elvis, in 1970.

On many occasions Elvis would invite J.D, also known as "Big Daddy," or "Jim Dandy," home after a concert to sing Gospel. Elvis would sit at the piano while they harmonized for hours.

J.D.s award winning voice earned him a Grammy, as well as a spot in the prestigious GMA Hall of Fame.

J.D.s famous voice plunging into a double low C, placed him in the Guiness Book of Records as the World's Lowest Bass singer.

[dcwave]

I am willing to bet that those links which state that the vocal range is "300Hz to 3500Hz" are taking their info from Bell Labs white papers regarding the filtering required on both analog and digital trunks for the spoken vocal range. I am a telecom engineer during the day and I will have to look in my files for this white paper.

Speech fundamentals occur over a fairly limited range between about 125Hz and 250Hz. The fundamental region is important in that it allows us to tell who is speaking, and its clear transmission is therefore essential as far as voice quality is concerned. Vowels essentially contain the maximum energy and power of the voice, occurring over the range of 350Hz to 2000Hz. Consonants occurring over the range of 1500Hz to 4000Hz contain little energy but are essential to intelligibility. For example, the frequency range from 63 to 500Hz carries 60% of the power of the voice and yet contributes only 5% to the intelligibility. The 500Hz to 1KHz region produces 35% of the intelligibility, while the range from 1 to 8KHz produces just 5% of the power but 60% of the intelligibility. By rolling off the low frequencies and accentuating the range from 1 to 5KHz, the intelligibility and clarity can be improved.

Here are some of the effect EQ can have in regards to intelligibility. Boosting the low frequencies from 100 to 250Hz makes a vocal boomy or chesty. A cut in the 150 to 500Hz area will make it boxy, hollow, or tube like. Dips around 500 to 1Khz produce hardness, while peaks about 1 and 3Khz produce a hard metallic nasal quality. Dips around 2 to 5KHz reduce intelligibility and make vocals woolly and lifeless. Peaks in the 4 to 10KHz produce sibilance and a gritty quality.


Here is a link to typical frequency ranges.
http://www.listenhear.co.uk/general_acoustics.htm

[Zed10R]

Originally Posted by Garry Sharp

Yes, i thought you'd have difficulties trying to EQ it. Can't you get hold of a different mic?

Yeah...I'm scrapping the idea of using that thing. I'm getting an AT4047 to replace my ADK Vienna and a Sennheiser MD421 to replace the troublesome AKG. Problem solved.

It's just a bummer because I'll need to track these vocs again and the old AKG sounded GREAT untill it hit that specific range....oh well.

I think you all for your very informative responses.....