Retuning after a chord change

[Mr songwriter]

I read an interesting interview with a guitarist recently (from a Nu-metal band, the name of which escapes me) and when asked how the recording of his new album was going, he said that it was pretty arduous as the producer was insisting that he retuned his guitar every time he changed to a different chord, now even though I already knew that it was physically impossible to tune a guitar correctly all the way up the fretboard, at the time I read this I thought this sounded like a pointlesss waste of time, but having got into home recording on my PC recently, you do become aware of how little variations in tuning and intonation can make quite a big difference to a recording. I go for quite a jangly, REMish guitar sound as well, and I'm wondering if doing something like this might help the chords ring out brighter/resonate better, etc.

Anyway, have any of you heard of this being done? (the retuning business) is it a common practice? and what are you tuning the guitar to? - a digital tuner? the bass part? (in fact do you have to retune the bass as well, or do you just assume it's OK?) and what about tuning unusual chords?

[metalhead28]

I don't understand this at all......You mean he recorded every chord seperately with a guitar tuned specifically to properly intonate it? I understand the reason but I can't understand the execution.....seems rediculous. What about having dozens of chords in a song?

[mshilarious]

Different chord or different key? I retune for different keys, but each chord sees awfully fastidious.

[famous beagle]

No this isn't entirely uncommon. Pink Floyd did it on "The Wall." They would tune an acoustic guitar to make a G chord really shimmer, for example. Then they'd record all the G chords throughout the song. Then they would retune to make a D chord sound perfect and record all the D chords throughout the song, etc.

As far as what you would tune to, I think you would tune the root note of the chord to the tuner, and then just make the rest of the chord sound as perfect as possible. This is done on a lot of Nashville recordings to make those ultra-prestine country songs. And yes they do it to the bass as well, if necessary. Although, bass isn't as much of a problem if it's intonated well, because you're usually only playing one note at a time.

The technique probably started from someone thinking that an important chord somewhere in a song didn't sound as beautiful as they wanted it to, so they tuned to make it sound sweeter and punched it in. Before you know it, they'd be doing it for every chord.

[Mr songwriter]

Originally Posted by famous beagle

No this isn't entirely uncommon. Pink Floyd did it on "The Wall." They would tune an acoustic guitar to make a G chord really shimmer, for example. Then they'd record all the G chords throughout the song. Then they would retune to make a D chord sound perfect and record all the D chords throughout the song, etc.

As far as what you would tune to, I think you would tune the root note of the chord to the tuner, and then just make the rest of the chord sound as perfect as possible. This is done on a lot of Nashville recordings to make those ultra-prestine country songs. And yes they do it to the bass as well, if necessary. Although, bass isn't as much of a problem if it's intonated well, because you're usually only playing one note at a time.

The technique probably started from someone thinking that an important chord somewhere in a song didn't sound as beautiful as they wanted it to, so they tuned to make it sound sweeter and punched it in. Before you know it, they'd be doing it for every chord.

Thanks a lot, that's very interesting and sort of what I expected, though it could be a bit of a nightmare if you were doing it on a thrash metal record. I'm going to have to have a go at that.

[Zed10R]

hhhhaaaaaa....LMAO....

Oh MAN that's some funny shit. That speaks VOLUMES. Haaaahhaaaaahaaaaa......GASP.....haaaaahahaaaa......

*falls off chair with gut wrenching laughter*

[logan]

hmm i live in nashville and go in and listen to some of the biggest names in country (artist and session players) play on records and have been doing it for years ive heard of ppl doing this but never have talked to a enginneer or producer who thinks taht this needs to be done. just my 2 cents

[bileshake]

It makes sense, a certain chord might sound fantastic in a certain register with a certain string gauge tuned to a certain intonation. Every instrument even the same model from the same factory on the same day will have it's own different character. You can obsess over these differences or simply use them as inspiration. I wouldn't employ this technique while tracking guitar just because I heard it's been done, I'd do it because a very important part of the riff wasn't holding up.

Oh yeah, the Nu metal band that was mentioned is probably Chevelle, not because I'm a fan but I read that they had to tune between chords. The reason was I heard was the intonation problems with his PRS being tuned sooo low. Less string tension, harder it is to hold a tune. I know, I live that battle, and can't afford a rack full of PRS customs. They're probably easier to tune that my cheap working man weapons.

[Mr songwriter]

Originally Posted by bileshake

Oh yeah, the Nu metal band that was mentioned is probably Chevelle, not because I'm a fan but I read that they had to tune between chords. The reason was I heard was the intonation problems with his PRS being tuned sooo low. Less string tension, harder it is to hold a tune. I know, I live that battle, and can't afford a rack full of PRS customs. They're probably easier to tune that my cheap working man weapons.

Yes, thanks, I think that might have been the name of the band, and I did wonder if he'd been having intonation problems with his guitar too. One of the reasons I'm interested in this technique is that I'm having intonation problems with my G&L Tribute, I've tried all sorts to fix it, including blocking the tremolo, but whether I tune it by ear or tuner, it will sound good on most chords but slightly nasty on open C, E and G (which I understand may be a problem with the nut) and as I tend to use quite a clean sound, tuning problems seem to be more noticeable. I'm going to try recording like that anyway til I can get the intonation fixed. You could probably do it pretty quickly once you get used to it.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by Mr songwriter

Yes, thanks, I think that might have been the name of the band, and I did wonder if he'd been having intonation problems with his guitar too. One of the reasons I'm interested in this technique is that I'm having intonation problems with my G&L Tribute, I've tried all sorts to fix it, including blocking the tremolo, but whether I tune it by ear or tuner, it will sound good on most chords but slightly nasty on open C, E and G (which I understand may be a problem with the nut) and as I tend to use quite a clean sound, tuning problems seem to be more noticeable. I'm going to try recording like that anyway til I can get the intonation fixed. You could probably do it pretty quickly once you get used to it.

It could just be dissatisfaction with equal temperament. But yeah, have it checked out.

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

It could just be dissatisfaction with equal temperament. But yeah, have it checked out.

I've seen an ad in a magazine for some type of alteration that can be done to your guitar that's supposed to take care of these intonation problems. I can't remember the name of the company, but the ad had Steve Vai and Robben Ford testifying. I think it had Eric Johnson too (or maybe Larry Carlton?), but I can't remember. Anyway, they were saying things like "After all these years, I'm FINALLY in tune." It looked interesting. They said it could be done to any guitar without altering the appearance. And I want to say the cost was something like around $300 or so.

Anyone else see this ad?

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by famous beagle

I've seen an ad in a magazine for some type of alteration that can be done to your guitar that's supposed to take care of these intonation problems. I can't remember the name of the company, but the ad had Steve Vai and Robben Ford testifying. I think it had Eric Johnson too (or maybe Larry Carlton?), but I can't remember. Anyway, they were saying things like "After all these years, I'm FINALLY in tune." It looked interesting. They said it could be done to any guitar without altering the appearance. And I want to say the cost was something like around $300 or so.

Anyone else see this ad?

No, but I'd be interested in reading it. Do you remember where you saw it?

[apl]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

It could just be dissatisfaction with equal temperament. But yeah, have it checked out.

If your brain gets tuned into the difference between equal tempermant and correct harmony pitch, you'll be very annoyed. Barber shop quartet harmonies are not equal tempermant but are dead on pitchwise, and thus they sing a lot a capella stuff because intruments will be out of tune to them.

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by ggunn

No, but I'd be interested in reading it. Do you remember where you saw it?

I think it was Guitar Player. And I think it had Santana on the cover. I want to say it was like Feb. of this year or something, but I can't remember. It was at a Half-Priced Books store, so it wasn't a brand new magazine, and I didn't buy it, so I can't say for sure.

If no one else chimes in with the answer, I'll go back and try to find it again.

[apl]

Here's an interesting article on equal temperament. Sorry for abusing the spelling earlier.

[bongolation]

Originally Posted by Mr songwriter

Anyway, have any of you heard of this being done? (the retuning business) is it a common practice? and what are you tuning the guitar to? - a digital tuner? the bass part? (in fact do you have to retune the bass as well, or do you just assume it's OK?) and what about tuning unusual chords?

I always catch hell from people here when I start talking about tuning, but you could do a lot worse than to listen to me.

After you decide what "in tune" is - equal temperament or one of a dozen or so other schemes - get a chromatic tuner of some sort with good resolution and see how well your guitar is "in tune" with the notes as played in various positions and open strings, and how "in tune" the individual notes are in a chord you're actually going to play.

This should go far to answer your question.

This does not even touch on the many problems with played notes going sharp, or with interference between played notes in a chord.

Tuning a guitar is always a compromise and almost always a pretty bad one, particularly if done mechanically or by a "system."

You eventually have to fine-tune "by ear" to the actual notes you'll be playing.

[EVT]

If I was told that I had to do this I would sob for eternity! Even on one song I wouldn't want to do this. Why not just have as many guitars as chords in the songs. Write a song with only 3 chords then have 3 different guitars named G,C, and A!

evt

[Zaphod B]

APL, you would not believe how long I've been looking for a source for this mathematical derivation.

Thanks!

[Mr songwriter]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

It could just be dissatisfaction with equal temperament. But yeah, have it checked out.

Well I bought this guitar about 5 months ago and the tuning has been bothering me ever since then, prior to that I had an Epiphone Semi acoustic, which I'd been playing for years and the tuning and intonation on that always sounded fine to me. There's an article here that appears to describe the problem I'm having (it apparently affects open C, E and G chords)


http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/

"As an example, I recently worked on an Ovation acoustic for one of our local guitar heroes. Even with minimal string height at the nut, it could not play first position C maj and E maj chords without one of them sounding sour - either a sharp third in one chord, or a sharp root and flat fifth in the other. The owner, and several repair techs at the other end of the country, had almost given up on it. (To be fair, I worked on a Gibson semi a few years ago, with exactly the same problem.) "


The only problem is that the modification makes your nut look like this:

http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/nut_blues.jpg

I am going to have it checked out though.

[bongolation]

Originally Posted by EVT

If I was told that I had to do this I would sob for eternity!

I doubt anyone on earth hates tuning instruments more than I do.

[bongolation]

BTW, compensated nut schemes for guitar go back at least as far as the '50s.

[apl]

Originally Posted by bongolation

I doubt anyone on earth hates tuning instruments more than I do.

The wannabes tryin' axes at Guitar Center might give you a run for your money!

[Mr songwriter]

One of these days someone will invent a self-tuning guitar and become very rich indeed.

[Mr songwriter]

Originally Posted by bongolation

BTW, compensated nut schemes for guitar go back at least as far as the '50s.

Ah thanks, actually I've just got an Email from a guitar tech who said he thinks the nut might need re-cutting, so hopefully it won't need to have all that gubbins added onto it.

[Codmate]

Originally Posted by Mr songwriter

One of these days someone will invent a self-tuning guitar and become very rich indeed.

Too late!

http://transperformance.com/index2.htm