Need help getting my FAT mix to stay FAT

[Dr. Jeep]

I record and mix in ProTools LE (via MBox) 24 bit sessions. The fidelity is solid - rich. Using rewire 24bit drum sessions. *I am not eq'ing anything unless its crucial (vocals etc.) I have a good monitor set up - good stereo field. With the exception of some bass correction, I can get a good mix in my home studio, it sounds pretty pro - I bring test mixes into my car to test from time to time so I am familiar with premastered sound.

Problem: I have been using several mastering suites to find an optimal final mastering mix (T-Racks, Ozone etc) But when its dithered down - the mix is thinner and a bit tinny. I am not doing excessive EQing or compression ( I don't think?) Is this a dithering issue or are my expectations just too high for a homestudio mix??? The difference between my 24bit session and a CD in the car is just depressing.

[Fishybob]

When mixed to CD to what does it sound like in the studio??

[Dr. Jeep]

Well - In the "studio" it sounds decent but noticably thinner than the ProTools session itself. However, leaving the studio for the car its even more apparent. Comparing it to other promixed songs you can tell the difference. It appears to me that these mastering plugins just crank eq or compression and give you a stereo field option and that's it. I don't want to resort to "tape saturation" plugins because I find them to just be muddy. I have been relying on the presets in these mastering plugins because I am not adept enough to tweak them yet.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by Dr. Jeep

... I have a good monitor set up - good stereo field. With the exception of some bass correction, I can get a good mix in my home studio, it sounds pretty pro.. ..It appears to me that these mastering plugins just crank eq or compression and give you a stereo field option and that's it. ... I have been relying on the presets...

There's the disconnect then. Between thoses two comments, I'd say if you're near where you want to be with the mixes, loose the presets, (begin with no additional processing) and simply start listening for what's actually needed in a song by song context. Get the basic stuff out of the way first. Maybe alot of what you were using isn't even needed then.
Wayne

[AlexW]

Yeah, mastering stuff is tough. I've trashed a few mixes that way and have by no means figured it out. In my experience, adding compression/limiting does odd things to the sonic character of the mix which must then be corrected with EQ--or the settings on your compression/limiting plugs changed so they're more transparent. In any case, a fairly pristine monitoring enviroment is needed to discern the subtle (and maybe not so subtle) changes happening and correct things back. Bottom line is I don't do my own mastering at this point.

[Massive Master]

Neither do I... I used to. Learned the hard way that it's really self-defeating.

[Dr. Jeep]

So say I just skip mastering - considering these mixes are for my own enjoyment and not public consumption - is there a way to preserve that fullness of a 24 bit session? I see what you are all saying, I just can't help but think that part of this problem lies within dithering to 16 bit. I have bounced songs out of PT without mastering at all and the "thiness" issue, or lack of fullness is still there. I just thought mastering may compensate.

Thoughts?

[AlexW]

I haven't noticed a big change in my mixes dithered from 24-bit to 16-bit. Do you notice a difference in your same monitoring environment post dither?

Sorry, just saw your previous post. It sounds like you notice a bigger difference outside the studio on other systems (e.g., your car). This seems like more of a mix translation issue to me. Keep working with your mixes to see if you can find a good balance between your studio sound and what things sound like outside your studio. If you haven't done so already, spend some time listening to mixes you're trying to emulate on your studio set up to see if you notice any differences with your mixes in that environment.

[Dr. Jeep]

Good advice to take. Yeah - I think part of my frustration is becoming used to a mix in a more optimum environment - then becoming frustrated with the car stereo (which is a good system btw). I listen to pro CDs in there all the time that sound really nice, so I assume my mix is lacking.

Its probably a matter of balancing the mix more for that situation. I will try to do some comparitive mixing.

Any tips to mixing in general in regard to this issue would be appreciated. I know its subjective - but maybe others have been able mix accordingly.

[reshp1]

Which Dither plug do you use? You didn't by chance get the factory bundle with your Mbox did you? The plug Maxim that comes in that bundle is really useful to pull some extra volume from the mix, but also has a dither function. I use that (out of laziness more than anything) and I don't notice a huge difference between the 24bit and 16bit files.

[Dr. Jeep]

No - I haven't used the Maxim plugin yet. Is that a limiter? I used the Powr Digi plugin - or something like that. It has some noiseshaping which I think is weak.

The other dithering was done on the above mentioned master plugins - like Ozone (Izotope) which has many options, but none that I can see as being the best.

[Massive Master]

Dithering is important in the grand scheme, but you're not looking at dramatic changes - Different dithering algo's have subtle differences. Pow-r is fine if that's what you're using, BTW.

With the volume that most people are trying to get to, most wouldn't notice if a file wasn't just truncated anyway.

[FALKEN]

yo I don't use dither. you're just eating up another bit and replacing it with randomn numbers. that doesn't make any damn sense.

also I bet you are compressing or limiting too much and not eq'ing properly. just my guess.

[Dr. Jeep]

Falken - When you go from 24 bit to 16 bit you just don't dither?

Yes - I have probably not learned enough about comp/limit to get the results I want. But I have observed the EQ can be detrimental as well.

[FALKEN]

right. no dither.

as far as eq - here's a trick I learned.

when monitoring the mix, turn the volume up way loud. like, as loud as you can get it before your ears hurt. just for a second or two. that will tell you which frequencies are the most offensive. cut those ones.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

right. no dither.

as far as eq - here's a trick I learned.

when monitoring the mix, turn the volume up way loud. like, as loud as you can get it before your ears hurt. just for a second or two. that will tell you which frequencies are the most offensive. cut those ones.

Jees. I turn it way down to see what's getting lost and then mix some more.
Wayne
Ok. Loud and soft.

[11miles]

This seems like a room problem to me!
this is the type of thing Ethan and the gang are writting in their well known articles about acoustic treatment!

''my mixes sound great but then when i'll go and listen to them in another system it sounds totally different....''

And if you are satisfied with your setup as it is, good monitors, .... i would check out some room acoustic topics in this forum!

As far as dithering is concerned...
My expiriences are, that recording in 16 or 24-bits makes a difference.
But when transforming the 24-bit typo of a stereo mix to a format that car stereo would recognize (44.1kHz&16-bit) dithering is essential.

Maxim is actually very usefull tool. along being a great and simple limiter it's also dither. So all in one, and simple!
I suggest it!

[Dr. Jeep]

Yeah - my little home room is closed in - but the acoustics aren't great. So, I suppose I am mixing for the room and not the world. Aside from doing a bunch of test mixes periodically, any clues as to how to arrive at a solid mix?

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by Dr. Jeep

Yeah - my little home room is closed in - but the acoustics aren't great. So, I suppose I am mixing for the room and not the world. Aside from doing a bunch of test mixes periodically, any clues as to how to arrive at a solid mix?

Sure. Learn your room. No mater a good room or poor, get ye and which ever ref. CD's in there, learn how they relate.
We're all working with what we got at any given point.
Wayne