vintage ludwig drums

[hardcore guy]

I am considering trying to piece together a vintage maple ludwig set. I would like some advice and comments on different lines of drums ludwig put out in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
I've come across some ludwig drums described as "super classic modular" and they seem to be a pretty good deal. They are 5 ply maple shells. I haven't heard them though. I guess I'm just drolling over John Bonham's sound and wanting to replicate it (like countless other drummers). I know that for a good portion of recordings he used a 6 ply maple green sparkle kit.
If anyone has any knowledge of vintage ludwig sets, it would be most helpfull. I'm looking for a very open and resonant warm tone with nice low end and nice projection.

[Farview]

If you are going for Bonhams tone, the sizes will be more important than the product line. As long as they are maple, 26,14,16,18, double headed, tuned high and you beat the crap out of them in a big room, you should be good. Remember, the main vibe of the sound was the room mics squashed to death with really nice compressors.

Except for the starter sets, just about anything Ludwig from the 70's will have a great sound.

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by hardcore guy

I am considering trying to piece together a vintage maple ludwig set. I would like some advice and comments on different lines of drums ludwig put out in the 60's, 70's and 80's.
I've come across some ludwig drums described as "super classic modular" and they seem to be a pretty good deal. They are 5 ply maple shells. I haven't heard them though. I guess I'm just drolling over John Bonham's sound and wanting to replicate it (like countless other drummers). I know that for a good portion of recordings he used a 6 ply maple green sparkle kit.
If anyone has any knowledge of vintage ludwig sets, it would be most helpfull. I'm looking for a very open and resonant warm tone with nice low end and nice projection.

The kit Bonzo recorded with wasn't necessarly Maple.
It was wood, but there is this myth that Ludwig made " All Maple" kits back then, but they didn't. Their drums were made from all sorts of wood - whatever was cheapest for them to buy....that is why they were painted white on the inside. For a long time, only certain kits were "all maple"....they had a Maple finish on the outside.
Bonzo's main recording kits were wrapped in Green sparkle, and painted white on the inside - so it is highly unlikely that theey were actually "All Maple".
In fact, is was very common for a kit to have each different drum made from a different kind of wood!


If you want the Bonzo sound, you're going to need the big drum sizes, with the resonant head tuned tighter than the batter head, and the entire kit tuned up higher in pitch than most people tune them. Bonzo tuned his 15" tom up to where most people would tune a 12", according to his drumtech Jeff Ocheltree.

Tim

[my2cents]

Originally Posted by Farview

and you beat the crap out of them .

this is a misconception. bonham did not beat the crap out of his drums. he knew how to strike them and how to tune them to get a solid, powerful sound with great tone. at a certain point, hitting hard makes your drums sound weaker.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by my2cents

this is a misconception. bonham did not beat the crap out of his drums. he knew how to strike them and how to tune them to get a solid, powerful sound with great tone. at a certain point, hitting hard makes your drums sound weaker.

Compared to most of the kids that I get in the studio on a regular basis, Bonham was beating the crap out of the drums.

I have a client who is heavily influenced by guys like Dennis Chambers, Virgil Denati, Rod morgenstein, etc... My client has all the instructional videos and studies them intently. My client hits like a pussy and it is very difficult to get a sound out of his kit. (BTW, he is in a metal band, making it more difficult to make the drums work)
When I had Rod Morgenstein in the studio, I invited my client to come in and observe. As we were looking through the window of the drum room, he commented 'See, he doesn't hit hard, look at him, he's barely touching the heads.' I dragged him into the drum room, the snare almost tore our heads off.

The idea is to hit hard enough to get the drums to speak properly. Most people I run into don't hit hard enough.

[my2cents]

Originally Posted by Farview

Compared to most of the kids that I get in the studio on a regular basis, Bonham was beating the crap out of the drums.

ok, well, i didn't know that was the criteria.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by my2cents

ok, well, i didn't know that was the criteria.

I know. Hitting harder has just become one of my stock answers because of the sad state of musicianship these days.

I suppose the bottom line is, if the original poster doesn't play like Bonham, the drumset isn't going to help. There have been hundereds of discussions about this. There really is no definitive Bonham sound. It changed quite drasticlly from album to album. The only thing that was consistant was the player. It was his feel that everyone is after. The drums and the mic technique won't work without the player.

[my2cents]

playing with conviction is always a step in the right direction. however, i would imagine there is a danger is stressing "hitting hard" to students who have no concept of dynamics. also, there are lots of drummers who are not hard hitters, but who play very well and get great sounds from their drums (not that you need me to tell you that). billy martin from medeski martin and wood, for instance.

[Farview]

We agree with each other, but you won't get 'When The Levee Breaks' by lightly tapping on the skins.

[hardcore guy]

I really didn't want this to turn into a Bonham thread because I know there are plenty of those. I guess I'm not really trying to "replicate" his sound. I just really wanted some info on different lines of ludwig drums and how they would sound. Thanks for all the comments, especially Tim.
Hey Tim, if I see a 70's ludwig (blue/olive badge) kit for sale described as 6 ply all maple with raw maple interiors and no reinforcement rings, what are the chances of this kit actually being all maple?

[my2cents]

Originally Posted by Farview

We agree with each other, but you won't get 'When The Levee Breaks' by lightly tapping on the skins.

true, but you won't get "the crunge" by bashing. bonham could be a heavy hitter, but he knew how to get HIS sound when playing with less volume.

[my2cents]

Originally Posted by hardcore guy

I really didn't want this to turn into a Bonham thread because I know there are plenty of those. I guess I'm not really trying to "replicate" his sound. I just really wanted some info on different lines of ludwig drums and how they would sound. Thanks for all the comments, especially Tim.
Hey Tim, if I see a 70's ludwig (blue/olive badge) kit for sale described as 6 ply all maple with raw maple interiors and no reinforcement rings, what are the chances of this kit actually being all maple?

sorry for all the bonham comments. you might be able to find some definitive answers in the ludwig book "the history of ludwig drums" (i think that's the title.) you're right that you're probably better off going with the blue/olive badge drums with no reinforcement rings than the earlier "keystone" badge kits. i have a set of '65 ludwigs with white painted interiors. there's no telling what kind of wood they are. good sound, whatever they're made of.

[Tim Brown]

Originally Posted by hardcore guy

I really didn't want this to turn into a Bonham thread because I know there are plenty of those. I guess I'm not really trying to "replicate" his sound. I just really wanted some info on different lines of ludwig drums and how they would sound. Thanks for all the comments, especially Tim.
Hey Tim, if I see a 70's ludwig (blue/olive badge) kit for sale described as 6 ply all maple with raw maple interiors and no reinforcement rings, what are the chances of this kit actually being all maple?
Today 09:26
.

It's probably all maple. That's when they made the switch. The ones painted White had the reinforcement rings in them from what I've seen. I used to buy old drum kits and fix them up and sell them. It seemed that for a while, I guess during their conversion process sometime in the early to mid 70's, if you bought a wrapped kit - you got one with rings and it was painted on the inside.... if you bought a wood grained or natural finish, you got all maple shells. Eventually the got rid of the painted multi wood shells.

To be honest, I don't put a whole lot of emphasis on the shell material, so it wouldn't really matter to me. I've found that the "all Maple" shells tend to be a bit brighter than some people like.... to me the remind me of my beloved vistalites, but they tune a lot better thanks to the sharp bearing edge.

It's kind of hard to get away from the Bonham comparisons since he was one of their more prominent endorsers, and they even promoted that you could have the Bonham sound if you played Ludwig....more hype LOL!


I'll put it this way, as long as the kit hasn't been completely abused, and you have sizes similar to Bonham's, you can achieve a similar sound, as long as you tune them in a similar fashion.

Me personally, I say build your own! LOL you can build an All maple kit for about the cost of a Pearl Export kit.


I just wish somebody made the Rail Consolette mount again, because even though a lot of people hated them - I thought it put the single mounted tom exactly where it needed to be. It's too far to the left for a conventional tom mount to get it just right, and it's too far to the right for a snare stand to work. I know DW is making a version, but they only offer it if you buy their kit as far as I can tell.

Heck, I'm even thinking about designing one. and seeing if I can get it marketed.



Tim

[hardcore guy]

Thanks for your replies. I was either thinking about getting a vintage ludwig set or building my own as you've suggested before. I've sent an email for quotes but haven't received a reply yet.

[my2cents]

Originally Posted by Tim Brown

I just wish somebody made the Rail Consolette mount again, because even though a lot of people hated them - I thought it put the single mounted tom exactly where it needed to be. It's too far to the left for a convential tom mount to get it just right, and it's too far to the right for a snare stand to work. I know DW is making a version, but they only offer it if you buy their kit as far as I can tell.

Heck, I'm even thinking about designing one. and seeing if I can get it marketed.



Tim

i like the rail consolette, too, but mine are stripped. you might consider attaching a multi-clamp/tom mount to a cymbal stand. i've done that with one of my kits and it's more solid and easier to position than the rail consolette.