Sustain me

[HapiCmpur]

I've got an '81 Gibson ES-335 that I've been extremely happy with for over twenty years. But now I'm not so sure. I've come across some articles recently that indicate this particular guitar was built for, and is now renowned for, excellent sustain. But it's sustain doesn't seem so excellent to me. So I have two questions for the distinguished panel.

First, what would be considered good sustain for a semi-hollow body guitar, and how is that measured? (I'm assuming that it's measured in seconds between pluck and decay with the guitar unplugged, but this still leaves other variables uncontrolled, such as the strength of the pluck and the hearing of the plucker.)

Second, if it turns out that my guitar is slacking off in the sustain department, what are the likely culprits? I'm already aware that a loose pickup is near the top of the list of usual suspects, but my pickups seem tight. Can pickups be loose enough to hinder sustain without being noticably loose to the casual observer? And if that's not it, where else should I be looking for clues?

[WRS]

Bad pun, I know. I own a 79 335 and it is wonderful and does have great unamplified sustain. However, most refer to the guitars sustain when amplified as the semi-hollow construction resonates so well. (and also will feedback like crazy!!). My suggestion will require a string change but may reveal the same problem I discovered a few years ago. Here we go! Remove old (or new strings) bummer yes but ya gotta do it. Gently lift the tunamatic bridge from the posts (remember which it faces otherwise if you put it back the wrong way the intonation will be shot). Next gently tug on the posts attached to the body being careful not to screw or unscrew them as this will adjust your action when replaced. You may find that they slip right out of the body, mine did. THe problem lies withthe fact that the posts are one of the main means of transmitting vibrations to the solid core of hte guitar, loose posts = weak sustain. If they come loose just drop in a little quality wood glue and reafix. Hope that helps. PS Does yours have the "Dirty fingers pickups" mine does. They are very hot and seem to be in demand with the rockers these days. I like them to drive my marshall JCM 2000 but am considering replacing with a more traditional pu. I will keep them and use to replace pu in an Ibanez shredder I am considering for purchase. Good luck, Oh, any idea what this era 335's are worth? Please reply.

[AGCurry]

Well, a 335 is going to have better sustain than a fully-hollow-bodied guitar, because of the plank in its body. It's NOT going to have the sustain of a fully-solid-bodied guitar, however. It's just plain old physics: The less string vibration transferred to the body, the more sustain you will have.

[HapiCmpur]

Originally Posted by WRS

most refer to the guitars sustain when amplified as the semi-hollow construction resonates so well.

I was assuming that you'd want to test for sustain with the guitar unplugged as a way of eliminating as many variables as possible.

Next gently tug on the posts attached to the body being careful not to screw or unscrew them as this will adjust your action when replaced. You may find that they slip right out of the body, mine did.

And if they don't slip right out with a gentle tug I should leave it at that, right? I mean, if they're not already detached, would I gain anything by detaching and reattaching them, or should I just assume that loose posts isn't the problem?

PS Does yours have the "Dirty fingers pickups" mine does.

To be perfectly honest I have no idea, but they look to me like replicas of Gibson's classic "PAF" pickups. I was just a stupid (and lucky) kid when I bought the guitar and had no idea what a great instrument I was getting, much less how it was outfitted. The dealer gave me a deep discount because it was stamped "Second" (for a flaw in the finish that I haven't been able to find in over 20 years). It was the only high-quality guitar I could afford at the time so I grabbed it without much thinking. I've always assumed that everything on it is standard issue -- or in this case, "re-issue."

Oh, any idea what this era 335's are worth? Please reply.

In fact, I do have a little info on that front. (Steady yourself so you don't fall out of your seat.) An '81 dot re-issue almost exactly like mine just sold on ebay for $2300. Another one is being auctioned as we speak, and the price is already up to $1300 with 2 days of bidding left to go.

Originally Posted by AGCurry

Well, a 335 is going to have better sustain than a fully-hollow-bodied guitar, because of the plank in its body. It's NOT going to have the sustain of a fully-solid-bodied guitar, however. It's just plain old physics: The less string vibration transferred to the body, the more sustain you will have.

You're right, of course. I should have mentioned in my post that 335's are noted for their sustain in comparison to similar guitars, not solid-bodies. I'm still hoping someone will offer some insight into how sustain is measured and what qualifies as good sustain. I read somewhere that Les Paul had been on a quest to achieve 20-second sustain while he was working with Gibson, and I'm wondering if he suceeded and if so, under what circumstances? I mean, with a lot of compression and gizmos almost any guitar can hold a long note, so what's the gold standard?

[Light]

Wait a second? You've been happy with the sound you have been hearing out of the guitar for 20 years, right? Then you read some article, and all of a sudden, what?


Did the guitar change?

No, I don't think that's it.


Did your ear change?

No, I don't think so.


So, what, exactly, is your problem?


For what it is worth, ES-335's where built as a compromise between the tone of a hollow body guitar and the feedback resistance of a solid body. Some of them may have great sustain, some may not, but that is to be expected, as all guitars are different (at least the good ones are).

But basically, if you have liked the guitar for 20 years, and nothing has changed (except for reading an article somewhere by someone of dubious knowledge), then stop looking for an excuse for your G.A.S., and either shut up and play yer guitar, or deal with the core problem (GAS attack) by going out and buying a new guitar.

Now, if something has changed, try a different set of strings first (bad strings happen), or maybe your pickups are too high, or maybe you need some fret work done. If you really want your conscience soothed, take it to a good repair shop, and get them to look it over. They will probably tell you it is fine, or that it needs some routine maintenance, or that it is a total POS that is falling apart, but probably that it is fine.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[bongolation]

Originally Posted by HapiCmpur

I'm already aware that a loose pickup is near the top of the list of usual suspects, but my pickups seem tight.

Can you explain what you mean by "loose pickups" and how they degrade sustain?

Thanks.

[HapiCmpur]

Originally Posted by Light

But basically, if you have liked the guitar for 20 years, and nothing has changed (except for reading an article somewhere by someone of dubious knowledge), then stop looking for an excuse for your G.A.S., and either shut up and play yer guitar, or deal with the core problem (GAS attack) by going out and buying a new guitar.

Man! Where'd you go to finishing school, the State Penitentiary? Ease off the caffeine a little. You might want to consider that from my perspective, both you and the author of the article I read are of equally dubious knowledge. Why should I take your word over his? Because you insulted me?

Now, if something has changed, try a different set of strings first (bad strings happen), or maybe your pickups are too high, or maybe you need some fret work done. If you really want your conscience soothed, take it to a good repair shop, and get them to look it over. They will probably tell you it is fine, or that it needs some routine maintenance, or that it is a total POS that is falling apart, but probably that it is fine.

Thanks for finally getting around to addressing my question. I hardly needed the attitude of your long introduction, though. If there's a chance that my guitar's not sustaining the way it should be, I'm justified in trying to learn if that's really the case, and if it turns out to be the case, I'm entitled to try to fix it. Sorry if I somehow offended you by being curious.

Originally Posted by bongolation

Can you explain what you mean by "loose pickups" and how they degrade sustain?

Hi, bongo. I just went looking for the source of my info on the connection between bad sustain and loose pickups and, naturally, I can't find it again. Sorry. I've been on kind of a reading binge lately on guitars and I'm losing my ability to remember where I got which piece of info.

At any rate, from what I recall of the article, a loose pickup will rattle against the body of the guitar, and that rattle will interfere with the body's attempt to resonate with the strings.

[Light]

Originally Posted by HapiCmpur

Man! Where'd you go to finishing school, the State Penitentiary? Ease off the caffeine a little. You might want to consider that from my perspective, both you and the author of the article I read are of equally dubious knowledge. Why should I take your word over his? Because you insulted me?

No, because I am telling you that you have been right to like your guitar for the last twenty years, which is to say, I am not touting my opinion, but YOUR opinion, which is that you like your guitar.

And where did I insult you? It certainly was not my intent.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[HapiCmpur]

Originally Posted by Light

No, because I am telling you that you have been right to like your guitar for the last twenty years, which is to say, I am not touting my opinion, but YOUR opinion, which is that you like your guitar.

I still like my guitar -- a lot. All I'm doing is trying to figure out whether or not I should be expecting more of it. Think of it this way: Let's say you've been driving the same car for a long time and have been very happy with it. Then one day you learn that it was designed to get exceptional gas mileage for a car in its class, and you had always considered its mileage acceptable but not exceptional. Wouldn't you want to know what kind of mileage it should be getting? And then wouldn't you also want to know what might be causing your car to get less gas mileage than it was designed for? That's all I'm trying to do with my 335.

And where did I insult you? It certainly was not my intent.

Sorry if I misunderstood, Light, but since I can't see your facial expression or hear your tone of voice, "shut up and play your guitar" came across as being more than a bit terse, especially after that little lecturette you opened with on "Did your guitar change?" Reading back over your post, though, I can see how it might be interpreted different ways. Sorry if I over-reacted. (I hate emoticons, but I'm starting to see why people use them.)

[Light]

Originally Posted by HapiCmpur

Sorry if I misunderstood, Light, but since I can't see your facial expression or hear your tone of voice, "shut up and play your guitar" came across as being more than a bit terse,

It's a Frank Zappa quote, I thought everyone knew that.

Sorry.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[HapiCmpur]

Originally Posted by Light

It's a Frank Zappa quote, I thought everyone knew that.
Sorry.

No harm, no foul. Zappa's on my reading list; I just haven't gotten to him yet.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by HapiCmpur

No harm, no foul. Zappa's on my reading list; I just haven't gotten to him yet.

http://www.progarchives.com/Progress...asp?cd_id=5409

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by HapiCmpur

First, what would be considered good sustain for a semi-hollow body guitar, and how is that measured?

to quote the movie 3 Amigos: "Does anyone have a watch? Preferably with a second hand?"

I don't know how practical this is, but the best way would be to compare it with another guitar, preferably a 335. if you could take your guitar to a guitar store or somewhere that would let you do that, you could remove a lot a variables.

and for my $0.02, I don't think it's wrong to wonder if a guitar you've generally been happy with could be performing better.

[HapiCmpur]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I don't know how practical this is, but the best way would be to compare it with another guitar, preferably a 335. if you could take your guitar to a guitar store or somewhere that would let you do that, you could remove a lot a variables.

That's not a bad idea, but I can't think of a guitar store that's quiet enough for it.

When I originally posted my question, I had it in the back of my mind that there would be published statistics on this sort of thing. Seems like the kind of topic that guitar mags would cover and that guitar makers would boast about. Shows you what I know.