To use the mic trim first or not to use it first?

[The Green Hornet]

Yo Goblin:

I read somewhere in this forum, from some post, by Ed, I think, maybe not, THAT: wHEN cranking up the MD-8 that the MIC TRIM SHOULD BE SET FIRST and then find a level with the fader for a given track. I haven't tried that yet; just wondered if that is accurate?

Everytime I turn on the PC I learn something.

Thanks,

Green Hornet

[Kelly Holdridge]

I'm pretty sure that you set your fader first (lines), and then the gain. Otherwise, there's no "standard."

Does Ed use an MD-8? I'm under the impression he doesn't, but I guess setting levels is universal...

[bvaleria]

Fader level-setting IS pretty much standard - your bring faders up to their typical 75% - 3/4 - or 0 level; THEN you adjust the trim pots as needed to bring the level up to the 0 level on the meters. This way all your signals sources are matched and you don't reek havoc with your headroom.

If your levels are already so high that the trims are unnecessary you have to drop your fader - but keep an eye on it to avoid overloading the channel.


Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound

[Edited by bvaleria on 09-16-2000 at 02:42]

[Proveras]

Someone teach me here,
that you set the gain or trim first with the channel fader down, and find the peak point (when the red point turns on)
and set the gain you want (signal-to-noise ratio)

and then use the channel fader...
IMHO, I found these very logical and practical.

[Nilbog]

That's interesting. I was under the impression that the higher the gains, the more distortion (especially since the gains on the MD8 arent that great), so you would want to use as little as possible, hence setting them last to boost the signal only as much as it needs.
Where would you set the gains initially, if you did it the other way?
-Nilbog
I'm going to post this in the mixing forum...

[Proveras]

Well Nilbog, the same person wrotes that the channel fader create more noise then the gain...

gain (trim) vs fader thread.
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthr...threadid=16001



[Edited by Proveras on 09-18-2000 at 19:42]

[Proveras]

Usin GAIN properly.

http://homerecording.about.com/music...htm?terms=gain

[Kelly Holdridge]

Uh...

Read that first link in context, folks. That is not the way to set gain, it is an observation to whether the gain or fader add more noise to a signal, all other things equal.

Set your gain after you've run your faders to 75%, or whatever indication of "gain setting" you have on your mixer/whatever. Otherwise, you're getting a fucked up dB/vu level (which is measured in most cases at the end of the signal).

Think about it. You could max your gain through the roof, getting distortion left and right. But if your fader is set low to begin with, your end-level meter can only monitor that signal after it's been cut by the fader resistors. So you're left with no way (outside of hearing the signal itself) of knowing whether you've maxed the signal out. In this case, it would still indicate headroom when in fact the pre-amp is maxed out.

The post we've been talking about concerns whether to use the fader or pre-amp (in this case, the built-in one) to amplify a given signal. The gain (controlling the pre-amp) is the strongest (less noisy) link in the chain, so get as much as you can out of that first. Then AFTER you've recorded, go back and screw with the faders.

The 75%-percent-fader thing is there for a couple of reasons:

1) You can boost that track's relative signal without having to reduce every other track. It's like having 25% (or actually, 33%) leeway after the pre-amp/source recording.

2) Provides an standardized starting point for setting gain, so as to maximize the pre-amp's share of amplification (which is better than pushing your faders up; adds more noise than pre-amps, been over that).

3) The faders have been calibrated to this mark as to ensure the signal meters are correct regarding the pre-amp gain. You've only got one meter per channel in most cases, so setting the fader in this way allows for accurate level measurement by the dB/vu meters.

Hell, this was probably covered by that second link. Didn't go there, was eager to help kill this thread (pissy mood today).

[The Green Hornet]

Thank you all:

Take two aspirin and post me in the morning Kelly.

Green Hornet

Appreciate the information and opinions and facts.

GH

[bvaleria]

Originally posted by Proveras
Someone teach me here,
that you set the gain or trim first with the channel fader down, and find the peak point (when the red point turns on)
and set the gain you want (signal-to-noise ratio)

and then use the channel fader...
IMHO, I found these very logical and practical.

No, that's NOT very good at all - you'll end up with NO headroom left and things will get very nasty, very quickly.
If you use the OL signal light as a frame of reference, then you are boosting the CRAP out of the channel input.

Consoles are calibrated to 0-level on the meters - you adjust channel inputs to THAT reading on your channels - the overload only triggers when you've hit +28 (yikes!!) on an input - driving it really hard! (The +28DB is on Mackies, other boards and consoles may vary!)

[Edited by bvaleria on 09-17-2000 at 14:49]

[Kelly Holdridge]

Dig it. I think I was frustrated with finding the words for that post. I hate having an idea upstairs and not being able to get the damn thing out!

MMMMMmmmmm. Asprin. You're not gonna bill me for these, are you, GH?

hehe

[The Green Hornet]

YO ALL:

Tonight I recorded some stuff on the MD-8; and, before I started, I started by trying to use the mic trim knob with the fader at zero on a track, like track 2. NADA. No Sound. No nothing. No work. Then, I moved the fader up, and, Voila, there was sound; of course, when the trim was upped, then the sound went up, to a level not needed to record, only to spread propaganda during a revolution.

So, I've concluded, the trim dial is a boost, if needed due to the mic or some other anomoly. {that's a big word for Kelly}

I spent about 4 hours in the studio today doing some stuff for a donation to a cancer golf tourney which comes up tomorrow.

MANY THANKS TO EMERIC FOR HIS RECORDINGS AND HIS PERMISSION TO USE A COUPLE OF HIS CUTS FOR THE CANCER TOURNAMENT.

Green Hornet

[Kelly Holdridge]

hehe.

My person is thoroughly enlightened with humorous rapture!

That was very cool of Emeric. He wins the "Em-y!"

[enemyofthesun]

I use a md8 for demoing tracks riffs etc..

The gain is used to warm up the sound and give it some heft so it doesnt sound weak, dry and sterile.

I typically like to start the fader at the 80% line that yamaha recommends but since alot of the stuff I do has alot of screaming and loud guitars, etc I usually favor backing off on the fader to accomodate a little more gain to get a fatter signal.

[The Green Hornet]

Yo NO SUN-BURN PERSON:

Thanks for your added input. As I used to tell my students, every time I turn on my PC I learn something, especially on this site.

Thanks,
Green Hornet

[enemyofthesun]

I agree this is an excellent site. Very very helpful!