Powered Floor Monitor or Mixer?

[jalbert]

I have a Marshall AS100D acoustic amp that I want hook a floor monitor up to. There are two sets of outputs on the back. Left and right 1/4 inch and left and right XLR. I guess they're both what would be called passive(?) outputs. That is, when I plug headphones or something into them the signal is extremely weak. So I guess that I either need to plug a powered floor monitor into them or run a cable from them into a mixer and then into a passive floor monitor. Is that right? If so, which would you suggest? I also want to be able to hook a digital recorder of some sort into the amp, which makes me think that I'm going to need a mixer anyway. Is any of that right? Do I have any idea what I'm talking about? Any advice or suggestions for what to get would be appreciated. Thanks.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by jalbert

I have a Marshall AS100D acoustic amp that I want hook a floor monitor up to. There are two sets of outputs on the back. Left and right 1/4 inch and left and right XLR. I guess they're both what would be called passive(?) outputs. That is, when I plug headphones or something into them the signal is extremely weak. So I guess that I either need to plug a powered floor monitor into them or run a cable from them into a mixer and then into a passive floor monitor. Is that right? If so, which would you suggest? I also want to be able to hook a digital recorder of some sort into the amp, which makes me think that I'm going to need a mixer anyway. Is any of that right? Do I have any idea what I'm talking about? Any advice or suggestions for what to get would be appreciated. Thanks.

What you have are line level (preamped) 1/4 inch outputs; you are correct in that they need to be connected to a power amp and speaker to be audible. You can record directly off the 1/4 inch outputs. The XLR outputs are probably instrument level, not as hot, and whether or not you can use them to record depends on the recorder.

As to which is better, that's up to you and what you want to do, what you can afford, etc. A mixer is not necessary, though, to amplify the signal or record it.

[guitarist_44]

What he previously said was correct. But if you want to record sumthing directly form the amp, then you iwll most likly need a mixer. You can pick um good 2 channal mixers for like 40$ if thats all you need.

[jalbert]

Originally Posted by ggunn

What you have are line level (preamped) 1/4 inch outputs; you are correct in that they need to be connected to a power amp and speaker to be audible. You can record directly off the 1/4 inch outputs. The XLR outputs are probably instrument level, not as hot, and whether or not you can use them to record depends on the recorder.

As to which is better, that's up to you and what you want to do, what you can afford, etc. A mixer is not necessary, though, to amplify the signal or record it.

Alright. That all makes sense. But let's forget about the recording for a minute. As far as using a powered floor monitor or a mixer(or some sort of preamp) and a passive floor monitor, which do you suggest? There doesn't seem to be too many powered floor monitors for sale for under $500.00, which makes me a little nervous. These are the only ones I've found that I might be able to afford:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ist&sku=308759

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...9020/src=01340

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...9021/src=01340

http://www.geartree.com/Shop/Control...id/0/SFV/29865

http://www.bananas.com/productdetail.asp/pid_1878

http://www.directproaudio.com/produc...3&from=froogle

The Wharfedale looks the nicest but it's probably out of my price range(it just doesn't seem right to pay almost as much for a monitor as I did for my amp). The Peavey and the Alto are the ones I'm considering most seriously. The Nady's and the Fender are probably garbabge.
One reason I'm leaning towards a powered floor monitor is that some of them have outputs that I think I could then use to record with if I was using a recorder that needed a powered signal(like a laptop or a small, handheld digital recorder). Would that work or would those outputs be "line level" just the ones coming out of my amp? Thanks.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by jalbert

Alright. That all makes sense. But let's forget about the recording for a minute. As far as using a powered floor monitor or a mixer(or some sort of preamp) and a passive floor monitor, which do you suggest?

What is it that you are trying to do? A "passive" (unpowered?) floor mon will need some sort of power amplifier to push it. Why is the amp itself not enough?

One reason I'm leaning towards a powered floor monitor is that some of them have outputs that I think I could then use to record with ... would those outputs be "line level" just the ones coming out of my amp? Thanks.

Exactamundo. They are the same.

[jalbert]

[QUOTE=ggunn]What is it that you are trying to do? A "passive" (unpowered?) floor mon will need some sort of power amplifier to push it. Why is the amp itself not enough?

Um, sorry, I don't really understand your question. Do you mean why isn't the amp able to push the signal through a unpowered floor monitor? I don't know, I'm just assuming that since it can barely even power a set of headphones that a monitor would be out of the question. There doesn't appear to be any powered 'LINE OUT"s on my amp. Just "line level" outs, like you said. So no matter what I'm going to need to boost the signal before I can get it to come out of a monitor. With the powered monitor the amp would be right inside the monitor itself and with a unpowered monitor it would have to be in a mixer or some sort of seperate preamp, right? Sorry if I'm not making myself clear, I barely understand any of this. Thanks

[ggunn]

[QUOTE=jalbert]

Originally Posted by ggunn

What is it that you are trying to do? A "passive" (unpowered?) floor mon will need some sort of power amplifier to push it. Why is the amp itself not enough?

Um, sorry, I don't really understand your question. Do you mean why isn't the amp able to push the signal through a unpowered floor monitor? I don't know, I'm just assuming that since it can barely even power a set of headphones that a monitor would be out of the question. There doesn't appear to be any powered 'LINE OUT"s on my amp. Just "line level" outs, like you said. So no matter what I'm going to need to boost the signal before I can get it to come out of a monitor. With the powered monitor the amp would be right inside the monitor itself and with a unpowered monitor it would have to be in a mixer or some sort of seperate preamp, right? Sorry if I'm not making myself clear, I barely understand any of this. Thanks

Sorry, what I mean to ask is, in a larger sense, what are you trying to accomplish with this gear? Are you in your living room? An arena? Studio? What is the application? What gear you need to do a job depends on what the job is.

[prestomation]

In a sense, your acoustic amp IS a floor monitor, Why do you want to connect another one to it?

[jalbert]

Originally Posted by ggunn

Sorry, what I mean to ask is, in a larger sense, what are you trying to accomplish with this gear? Are you in your living room? An arena? Studio? What is the application? What gear you need to do a job depends on what the job is.

I play solo acoustic guitar(fingerpicking mostly) and sing and I'm using the Marshall to play live gigs. The places I play are small but still get noisy.

Originally Posted by prestomation

In a sense, your acoustic amp IS a floor monitor, Why do you want to connect another one to it?

Because the amp has to sit a little in front of me or I'll get feedback from the condenser mic I use on the guitar. So I can't hear what I'm doing. Isn't that why people usually use floor monitors?

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by jalbert

I play solo acoustic guitar(fingerpicking mostly) and sing and I'm using the Marshall to play live gigs. The places I play are small but still get noisy.

Because the amp has to sit a little in front of me or I'll get feedback from the condenser mic I use on the guitar. So I can't hear what I'm doing. Isn't that why people usually use floor monitors?

If the amplified sound is loud where the mic is, whether it's from your amplifier or from a floor monitor, it will feed back; there's no difference. You might try elevating the amp and putting it close behind you pointing at your head, with your body between the amp and the mic. Put the mic as close to the guitar as you can, so that the mic "hears" the guitar as much louder than it hears your amp as possible.

I'd try some configuration changes to see if you can solve your feedback problem before you go out and spend a bunch of money on gear that may not solve it.

If you are concerned about providing enough sound to fill the room without feeding back, then that's a different problem. In that case, you'll want some sort of repeating sound source pointed at the audience, far enough and pointed away from that condenser mic. A powered monitor taking signal from the line out of your amp would be the simplest and cheapest solution to that problem.

Concenser mics are wonderful for acoustic guitar, but they are very prone to feedback, as you have discovered.

[demosthenes]

You could get a 31 band eq for the monitor, that would help quite a bit.

Also, you could get a $50 ART headphone amp and a set of tiny earbud headphones. Run the headphone amp from the line out, and monitor with the earbuds. Use one side only if it sounds too isolated for you.

[jalbert]

Well, I just tried turning my amp around and facing it at me, like I was thinking I could do with a floor monitor, and I think I did some permanent damage to my hearing. You're right about it not mattering where the sound is coming from. I thought that if it was coming from directly behind the mic that it wouldn't get picked up too much but the condenser is way too sensitive for that. I get what you're saying about putting the amp behind me and trying to block the sound with my body but I think I'd still have to turn the mic way down to keep it from feeding back. The headphone amp and the ear buds is probably the best move but I don't really want to have my hearing isolated to whats coming through the amp(even in one ear). Still, I might try it and see if I can get used to it.
I've also seen these tiny personal monitors that can be mounted on a mic stand:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--GXYMSVC
http://www.zzounds.com/item--GXYHOTS...view--On+Stand
And the powered model:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--GXYPA5X140

If I used one of those I could actually put it between me and the condenser mic with it facing away from the mic and straight at me. Think that would work? If it would then I'd be back to my first question about which would be better, the powered version or the unpowered being run by a seperate preamp.
For now I'll just try to slide up as close beside the amp as I can and crank it up loud enough that I can hear it.
If anyone has any other suggestions about to deal with this problem I'd be glad to hear them. Thanks for all the help.

[ggunn]

How far away is the mic from the guitar? You'll want to mic the guitar as close as you can and put the amp as far away as you can so that the ratio of what the mic hears from the guitar to what it hears from the amp is as high as you can get it.

If you are running the amp so loud that you fear that you are damaging your hearing, it's no wonder that you are getting some feedback. If it has to be that loud, maybe you should consider getting a piezo pickup for the guitar and losing the mic.

[jalbert]

Originally Posted by ggunn

How far away is the mic from the guitar? You'll want to mic the guitar as close as you can and put the amp as far away as you can so that the ratio of what the mic hears from the guitar to what it hears from the amp is as high as you can get it.

If you are running the amp so loud that you fear that you are damaging your hearing, it's no wonder that you are getting some feedback. If it has to be that loud, maybe you should consider getting a piezo pickup for the guitar and losing the mic.

I tried some of your suggestions and I think I've got it all figured out. Now I'm putting the mic as close to the guitar as I can without hitting it with my hand and I think I'm getting just about all the sound out of my amp that it can produce, which really should be plenty for the people I'm playing for to hear me and for me to hear myself. I've realized that the whole monitor thing really isn't necessary until I'm using a larger PA type setup, in which case the speakers would be farther away from the mic and I would need someone else to control the levels for me(unlike now with just me and my amp and me needing to be able to reach over and adjust the sound myself in the middle of performances). I think I've been reluctant to crank up the amp because I thought that it was way louder to the people out in front and that if it was loud enough for me to hear sitting next to it that it would be too much for them to handle. But I suppose that sitting that close to it I can hear it as well as anyone in the room. I'm just going to turn it up till I can hear and if it gets to the point where it's still not enough I'll know it's time to get a more powerful setup.
The piezo is probably what I'll have to do eventually but I should be alright with the mic for now.
I was damaging my hearing from the insane feedback I got when I tried setting up the amp like it was a monitor(facing it back towards the back-end of the mic) not just from the volume of the amp.
Any suggestions for how I could use this amp in a larger setup when the time comes? Thanks.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by jalbert

Any suggestions for how I could use this amp in a larger setup when the time comes? Thanks.

Sure. Plug a mic cable into the XLR connector on the amp and hand the other end to the sound guy. If you go to a piezo pickup and play louder, get one of those rubber Feedback Busters to cover the sound hole; they really work.

Congrats on improving your setup without having to throw money at it. ;^)

[jalbert]

Originally Posted by ggunn

Sure. Plug a mic cable into the XLR connector on the amp and hand the other end to the sound guy.

I guess that was pretty obvious.

Thank you very much for all your help. It's amazing how difficult it is to find information on really basic live audio techniques. Everybody assumes you already know this kind of stuff. Thanks for being patient with me. Take it easy.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by jalbert

I guess that was pretty obvious.

Thank you very much for all your help. It's amazing how difficult it is to find information on really basic live audio techniques. Everybody assumes you already know this kind of stuff. Thanks for being patient with me. Take it easy.

De nada. There is seldom just one way to do anything; just get some ideas and suggestions and try things until you find what works for you.