dont get lost in technicalities

[Kasey]

allow me to share a little story as a demonstration.
Me and my friend run my churches sound for youth groups and some main church services. We just got a brand new digital board and this evening were playing with it with the youth band. There are two other sound guys in the church that do the sound for most main services. I am in my late teens and my friend is in his early twenties, and these two guys are in their 40's or 50's. They have much, much more experience than me and my friend.
Anyways, they come in while we're mixing the youth band and start talking with us and to each other. they start discussing how "oh my goodness you didnt cut 400 Hz on the bass drum?? are you insane? that is, in my opinion of course, one of the most annoying frequencies on the bass drum" at this point i decided that they were very knowledgeable about sound. then one of them started making jokes about latency... and then began talking about other technical things such as what was the best rpm setting for a hard drive in a recording computer... my friend knew them somewhat, i had never met them really.
later, once they had left, me and my friend naturally began making fun of them saying things such as "did you hear that joke about the drummer that complained about the 40 ms latency through the monitoring chain, haha!"
we were mean... but seriously, these guys had lost all artistic aspect of being a sound guy. they might as well have been computer programmers typing ones and zero's all day long, 7 days a week.
dont be that guy. knowledge of technology is very helpful, but dont allow it to become the only thing you care about.remember the point of the technology.

they mixed the youth band to their liking, just to show us how they thought it should sound. and i'll admit, it did sound good. but it was the most boring, generic, plain sounding mix i'd ever heard. there was nothing cool about it, at all. me and my friend love doing weird stuff... thats we're all the fun is, and it still sounds good, and unique at the same time. just dont be that guy.

[Track Rat]

Too late. I AM that guy.

[RAMI]

You made fun of someone at church? That's not very "Christian". But Jerry Falwell would be proud.

Actually, I'm trying to understand what bothered you about these guys so much. If they were giving you advice and suggestions, then I don't see the problem. If they were making fun of you, well you made fun of them, too...after they were gone. At least they were mean right to your face, which is less hypocritical....And that's if they were actually being mean. Or is it a case of not wanting to hear someone telling you that you might be doing something wrong? I don't know, I'm just wondering.
And, no, I'm not an "old guy", and I'm not someone hung up on the technical aspect of things. I don't have enough knowledge to be one of those guys.

[Matheon]

i know what you're saying.. for the most part i believe everything should be perfect..
but then i'll listen to operation ivey and that HORRID guitar sound they have that.. though it sounds terrible.. no other sound would really be that cool.

i think its quite possible people get bogged down in "this is how its done cause i've always done it and it works"

the other day i mixed a song and wasn't happy with it.. it just sounded bad.. then i stripped all the EQ and effects off and suddenly the mix sounded almost perfect..

like the old southern proverb: if it ain't broke don't fix it!

[Dani Pace]

I'm one of those "over 50" guys. Don't take me wrong, I'm on your side. While I have to admitt that I may not always agree with the younger guys about how things should sound, musical tastes have changed and some of the things which don't appeal to me are very much desired by others. I say, for a more traditional sound, let us old guys do it, for a more modern sound I'll gladly let you younger guys take control of the mixer. After all you know what the younger people want to hear better than we do.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

While the technical details are important; they're a means, not an end.

I get into this debate with one of my closest friends who happens to also engineer digital media on the east coast. He is a great guy with a great ear, but he is also a self-proclaimed "gear slut" who is always getting bogged down not only in the toys and in new fancy methods and effects, but also in the details and the formulas. I keep saying that stuff is great to know but what your point? What are you actually going to DO with those toys, those methods, those details and those formulas? He gets so bogged down playing with the trees that he forgets the he's in the middle of a forest.

On the other hand, as a Baby Boomer living in the world of the Gen Whatevers, I have great sympathy for the following old saying, "The older you get, the more you know and the less others care."

G.

[chessrock]

Kasey, these people you were crackin' jokes about were sound people.

That's what good sound people do; sweat details.

Maybe you didn't care for their style or delivery ... but when you listen to masterpiece recordings; OK Computer, Abbey Road, Dark Side of the Moon, Blood Sugar Sex Magic, anything from Steely Dan, etc. etc. and the list goes on ... The very reason these records sound so good is because there were audio dorks working on it who sweat details like what frequencies to cut on the kick. As dorky as it seems to you.

Have you ever heard a kick drum that sounded like a basketball? That's the sound you get, a lot of times, if you don't cut some low mids out of the kick. Maybe you like that sound -- I don't, and there's certainly nothing "modern" about it. And the whole thing about 40 ms latency ... shit, if I was a drummer, and heard that long of a delay on everything coming through my headphones, I'd strangle someone. You realize 40 ms is long enough to be considered an all-out echo or delay, right?

Think about it ... have you ever tried talking to someone on their cell phone while it's on "monitor," and you keep hearing an echo of yourself on the line while you're talking? That's what it would be like trying to track with a 40 ms latency.

If this stuff is too technical and geeky for you, and you'd rather just fiddle around with cheap-sounding effects and what not, then that's cool. Your level of interest in this stuff will probably never reach beyond just a passing hobby / interest. For those who are more serious about their recordings, and want a more professional sound, then I'm afraid these are the kinds of "dorky" things you have to become aclimated with.

Originally Posted by Kasey

they mixed the youth band to their liking, just to show us how they thought it should sound. and i'll admit, it did sound good. but it was the most boring, generic, plain sounding mix i'd ever heard. there was nothing cool about it, at all. me and my friend love doing weird stuff... thats we're all the fun is, and it still sounds good, and unique at the same time. just dont be that guy.

Next time I record a church youth band, I'll keep this post in mind, and make a note to myself to pull out all the stops: backwards satanic messages, flanger effects on the snare, distorted vocals, etc. All the kids' parents and grandparents who listen to this stuff while high should really appreciate it.

.

[GOODLAND]

Man, if those two guys came to my church, I could probably spend hours talking and learning from them.
And after talking with them there would no need for this website!! lol
just jokin

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by chessrock

Kasey, these people you were crackin' jokes about were sound people.

and they were LIVE sound guys.
live sound isn't really much of art anyway. ya just throw up a bunch of mics and push up the faders

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by bennychico11

and they were LIVE sound guys.
live sound isn't really much of art anyway. ya just throw up a bunch of mics and push up the faders

I hope you're joking about this. If you want CRAPPY ass live sound, then yes that's what you do. If you want a really good live sound, however, it is most certainly an art.

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by famous beagle

I hope you're joking about this.

i'm sorry, apparently you missed the smiley faces.
here's another one for you.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by chessrock

If this stuff is too technical and geeky for you, and you'd rather just fiddle around with cheap-sounding effects and what not, then that's cool. Your level of interest in this stuff will probably never reach beyond just a passing hobby / interest. For those who are more serious about their recordings, and want a more professional sound, then I'm afraid these are the kinds of "dorky" things you have to become aclimated with.

Bingo! I agree 100%.

Kasey - your job at the sound board is to make the band sound GOOD and represent THEIR SOUND to the audience, not yours.......

If you were sound guy at my gig (when I was playing live blues), I would have smacked you upside-da-head if you made "weird and unique" stuff happen at the board.

It sounds to me like you need to START worrying about some of those technicalities.

[Zaphod B]

One band I was in had a sound man that drove me nuts, particularly after this one gig.....

He was a "friend of the band" who inherited the job as the band started doing road work, since he was willing to travel and was a hard worker.

I always wondered why we had such a hard time getting the vocal monitors up to a decent level. Then one night, we had one of the sound reinforcement experts from Heart of Texas help us out with our initial sound setup because we had just bought some expensive PA upgrades from them - new mics, power amps, I can't remember exactly everything.

Anyway, the HoT guy brought in a white noise generator and a frequency analysis setup, got the PA system as flat as possible, and stayed with us during the first set to make sure that everything was working properly and stable. The vocal monitor mix and volume was the best we had ever experienced - it was just phenominal the way the monitors cut through. As soon as he left - literally during the first song of the second set, the monitors started squealing and Barry (sound guy) had to cut the monitor levels back to reduce the feedback.

During the break after that set, I went over to Barry at the board and asked him what the situation was with the monitors. He said he didn't like the tone of the mix that the HoT guy had used, and had added some high end to the vocals. You can imagine the conversation that ensued, but basically he took the position of "I don't care if my mix makes your monitors less useful, because I think it sounds better than whatever that professional was doing."

If I hadn't been the new guy, I'd have gotten him fired.

On the other hand, we might have had a hard time finding someone else that would work for bean dip and Doritos.

[Kasey]

im not saying that you shouldnt know as much as possible about the technicalities of sound - you should, and arm yourself with as much knowledge as possible to strengthen you in the art of sound. however, dont forget that it is an art. I'm sure that if i were to hang out with those guys i would learn a lot, but i would make sure not to acquire their view of sound as 100% by the book and 100% technical. honestly, if i were to tell these guys some of the audio experiments i've conducted they would look at me as if i had just told them that i had put my cat in the microwave the night before. In fact, i almost want to talk to them about audio experiments now just to see their reaction.

Chessrock, my apolagies, the 40 was a typo, it was supposed to be a 4. who gets worked up over a 4 ms latency delay?? if an engineer is getting worried about that you've lost all focus.

I am open minded about all of this, and you guys all made good points, but i still feel that these guys have lost the artistic aspect of it.

[ROblows]

Originally Posted by Kasey

dont forget that it is an art.

Mixing live sound is not an art. It is not an outlet for the soundman's creativity. It's just not. Your purpose as a live soundman is to facilitate the performers' ability to express their art. You don't see the curator of the Louvre hanging streamers from the Mona Lisa under the guise of expressing his art. Don't forget which side of the board you are on.

[fraserhutch]

That something is an art is by NO means an excuse to avoid learning the craft. All art is craft.

They sound like they are working on the craft. Kudos to them.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by ROblows

Mixing live sound is not an art. It is not an outlet for the soundman's creativity. It's just not. Your purpose as a live soundman is to facilitate the performers' ability to express their art. You don't see the curator of the Louvre hanging streamers from the Mona Lisa under the guise of expressing his art. Don't forget which side of the board you are on.

Exactly! And great analogy, btw!

[Kasey]

everything is art.

[corban]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

Exactly! And great analogy, btw!

Hmm, I agree with you guys, but it makes me wonder... why do we see it as different for studio recording? Why is the studio engineer more free to view his work as art and influence the art of the performers? Or do you also see the studio engineer's job as solely "to facilitate the performers' ability to express their art?"

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Kasey

everything is art.

Including denial, it seems.

[Kasey]

Originally Posted by RAMI

Including denial, it seems.

i suppose it could be.

[ROblows]

Originally Posted by corban

...why do we see it as different for studio recording? Why is the studio engineer more free to view his work as art and influence the art of the performers? Or do you also see the studio engineer's job as solely "to facilitate the performers' ability to express their art?"

That depends solely on what the artist wants. Often an artist will want more of a collaborative process in the studio. That's very rarely the case with live sound. Even in the studio, it can lead to a lot of conflict and awkward situations if you simply assume that the artist wants you, as the engineer, to be deeply involved in helping them create. Many simply want you to get the sounds to tape. Best to set those ground rules in advance.

[RAMI]

Also, a producer and an engineer are 2 different things.

[Kasey]

Originally Posted by RAMI

Also, a producer and an engineer are 2 different things.

true, but whats that got to do with what we're talking about?

[RAMI]

Originally Posted by Kasey

true, but whats that got to do with what we're talking about?

I was reffering to this and trying to illustrate that an engineer's job is usually more technical and less "artistic" that a producer's:

Why is the studio engineer more free to view his work as art and influence the art of the performers? Or do you also see the studio engineer's job as solely "to facilitate the performers' ability to express their art?"

So it has eveything to do with what we're talking about. But the fact that you don't see that explains a lot.