Drum OH mics / placement

[MovingOnStudios]

whats up forum. i read most of these areas religiously and I must say its helped me tremendously. i was looking for some ideas/opinions on how you guys work with your overhead mic's. I'm looking at maybe a pair of Studio projects...the c1000's are always a winner. i don't have a high budget, but what i'm using now isnt cutting it. also, on another note. placement wise, what are some of you doing? i close mic each drum and usually don't use a room mic since the room is only 13x13. i get phasing alot of times and would love to know some techniques to work that out (i know by ear mostly but where is a good place to start so its not such an issue, maybe i'm just putting the mic's in the wrong areas) anyway, any response would be GREATLY appreciated.

randall

[MovingOnStudios]

edit on that last post. i meant to get the point across i was looking at the studio projects pencil condensors, the akg c1000's or maybe the rode nt series pencils. something in that price range is what i was looking for opinions on....for a upcoming purchase i need to make. i re-read that last post and it looked like i was saying that SP made the c1000's i'm not retarded i promise

[PhilGood]

I wouldn't go crazy over the c1000. Its kind of a bright and sometimes harsh sounding mic for overheads. The SP C4's are quite good, so are the MXL 603s and Oktava MK012. They are quite similar in sound, with the Marshalls being a bit brighter.

On another note, room dimensions really shouldn't be multiples of each other. Since your room is 13x13, try and put something large near the center of one wall to break up standing waves. This MIGHT be one problem you're having.

One sure cure for phasing problems is to use 2 pencils in an X/Y arrangement, where the capsules are almost touching at a 45* angle, cross pointed. (wish I had a picture) Imagine the mics are right over the drummers head. The mic on the right would be pointed at the left side of the kit. The mic on the left would be pointed at the right side of the kit. Because the capsules are so close together, the sound waves arrive at the same time.

Did that help?

[Track Rat]

I wouldn't go with C-1000's as overheads. As stated, they're kind of nasty in that roll. Now they kick but as tom mics or a snare mic but not overhead. The Octavas are nice overhead if you don't have a big budget. If you get all the caps, it gives you some options down the road for not a lot of cash. Depending on how I feel on any given day, I like either Earthworks SR-71's, Neumann KM-184's or the Octavas over the kit.

[MovingOnStudios]

thanks so much for the quick responses guys. i used to go with the X/y pattern but strayed off somewhere...don't know why. guess i just got expiremental. the mic's i've been using lately (for lack of better ones) are octava mk219 (which i have researched as being crap basically)....on the last few sessions i tried a octava on the ride/floor tom side and a marshall v67 on the hh/snare side (its a bit brighter) that could be why i'm getting issues since they are such different mics maybe? i'll deffinatly be getting a matching pair of OH mic's in the next week or so. i'll also deffinatly be x'ing out the c1000's. i guess i hear from the wrong sources that they worked well on the OH mic'ing. i trust the opinions on this board much more anyway. if i were to go outside the X/Y parttern. whats a good place to start with the mic's to get a good image? and how far over the kit (as in, over the cybals or farther in....closer to over the drumers head/snare? once again, thanks guys this is going to be a huge help and i'll post samples of what i try.

just for kicks the setup i run is

p4 2.7 ghz w/1gig memory 240 gig HD
protools 002r/6.4 LE
tascam dm-24 board
krk v6 monitoring
art tps II
dbx 266xl Comp
waves platinum/tracks/pultec,joe meek and a l ot of other plugins

thats the core of the system, i know its not alot but i'm only 24 and i paid for it all myself keep those responses coming. i've been touring/playing in bands for a while but in the past few years have become very addicted to this recording art. any help is greatly appreciated.

randall

[Track Rat]

I have a lot of mixed feelings on overhead miking. And I always LOVE to experiment. Traditionally I've played it safe and used X-Y to attempt to minimize any possible phase problems. Wide spacing gives that possibility of WIDE stereo but I just don't like a drum kit to sound 15 feet wide. As a matter of fact I've been going in the oposite direction and doing mono overheads and just panning the tight mics on the toms a bit. I feel like I'm getting a more realistic and (more importantly) a more powerful sound from the kit.

[mjau]

Yep, like others have said, a room of that size could bring out some problems and it'll be in the overheads (vs. the close mics) that you'll notice it. I'm in a similar situation - in a small room - so I use my overheads to just pick up the cymbals and give the kit a little bit of space. Since I'm not relying too heavily on my OH sound, I'm just using a spaced pair of ADK sc1's (each about 2.5 drumstick lengths from the snare). I'll throw up a mono front of kit mic (at4033 or at4050) if I want a more live sound, but because of my small room, I end up relying on outboard reverb for my drums more often than not. Mono drums that are in phase, tuned well, and played well never leave me feeling like I'm missing something by not having a huge stereo image.

[tourettes5139]

You might also try an ORTF setup with your overheads. It will give you a wider stereo image than X/Y, but it still sounds very natural, not
over-exaggerated at all. It has worked very well for me.

What you do is you set up the mic capsules 7" apart, with the angle between them being 110 degrees. I usually use a stereo mic bar for this, just for the ease of stand placement and such.

[MovingOnStudios]

thanks for the responses. i'm deffinatly going to try out the suggestions. I also have a choice of 3 rooms for recording drums. i'll make a graphic with dimensions and see which one you guys would recommend me turning into the new drum room...the one i'm using is just too small. once again, thanks and keep the comments comming. its all very helpful to me and i'm sure others as well.

randall

[Track Rat]

I'd strongly suggest you try all of your rooms to see what YOU think sounds best. Math will only get you so far and doesn't tell the whole story of how any particular room will sound. There are so many variables. You can look at room dimensions and calculate room modes but that won't tell you how it will actually behave in the real world.

[MovingOnStudios]

trackrat: good call. that really is the only 'real' way to do it. but out of 3 rooms, one of them "dimensionally' would most likely be a better starting place correct?
i'll try and make a simple drawing and throw it up so you guys can see what i'm working with. i know it won't be a sure thing for you to tell me what will be best, but like i said. its just a good place to start with ideas.

[knuckledragger]

I use a spaced pair of large diaphragm condensors about eye level. Usually can eliminate phase by eyeballing the capsules making sure they are even. Depending on the spread of the kit and what i'm looking for they will be about 1.5 to 3 feet apart.

I'll close mic everything else. At one time I only had 8 I/O's, and with close micing a kit, there were none left for room mics. If you don't have enough inputs or the room is to small there's a trick to make em bigger. Create sends from the OH's and buss them to a stereo aux; put a stereo delay on the aux. Only set one side to 0 ms and the other adjust to taste...don't leave such a short ms to create flange or chorus...but a little more. You get the width of the room by panning the OH's; but as soon as you raise the aux with the delay it creates depth to the "room". Pretty cool.......have fun.