Anyone have experience recording saxophones?

[TFunkadelic]

I'm going to be recording both alto and tenor saxophone soon, and I was curious as to whether or not anyone has any microphones they feel work particularily well for doing so in the 200-400$ price range. Also, any techniques would be greatly appreciated.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

It's almost cliche to recommend a Sennheiser 421 for sax, which would fall into the higher end of your price range. Mic placement is often in front of the instrument angled down towards the bell. Adjust that angle up or down depending on how much key claking noise you want to get.

G.

[bennychico11]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

It's almost cliche to recommend a Sennheiser 421 for sax, which would fall into the higher end of your price range. Mic placement is often in front of the instrument angled down towards the bell. Adjust that angle up or down depending on how much key claking noise you want to get.

G.

actually...for a micing technique I would angle the mic at more at the keys. Due to the properties of sound, I think most of the air comes from that area and the higher up the player plays the.......................

[washingtonbc]

I've had great results at Church with a Rode NT1 (NT1a). Those cost around $200 new. A great condenser mic. Of course, you should record a good player in a good room.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by bennychico11

actually...for a micing technique I would angle the mic at more at the keys. Due to the properties of sound, I think most of the air comes from that area and the higher up the player plays the.......................

Hey Benny, you could just kick me in the family jewels and I'd play really high.

G.

[fraserhutch]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Hey Benny, you could just kick me in the family jewels and I'd play really high.

G.

What mic would you recommend to properly capture that?

[TFunkadelic]

Thanks for the advice. I was also looking at the Blue Bluebird a little bit. It's $500, but I think I chould shell out a little extra if it's worth the quality. I've heard that if you place one mic on the front near the bell, and one from the rear on the bottom by the lower octave E flat key (if you know where that is) it fills out the sound more. Anyone tried this?

[TFunkadelic]

About that Sennheiser...Are there any fairly popular recordings that you know of that were made using it?

[sweetnubs]

I normally mic the sax (in a overdub situation) back a little bit, 3-5' or sometimes more depending on the amount of room sound I want, with the mic aiming at the middle of the horn. Rarely towards the bell, unless I want a "honky" sound. Bell=honkiness. The sound of the sax emanates from more than just the bell so you want to capture the entire instrument hence aiming at around the middle from a distance. Don't know for your range of mics. Me usually a u67, royer 121, or u47 FET (I don't own a tube 47). The 421 thing is usually a live micing method but may suit your budget.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by fraserhutch

What mic would you recommend to properly capture that?

Oh that would have to be the Blue ball.

G.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

About that Sennheiser...Are there any fairly popular recordings that you know of that were made using it?

I'd estimate that somewhere around one out of every three recordings of saxs made over the last 40 years or so were made with some historical version of the 421. It is about as cliche to use the 421 for saxophone as it is to use a Neumann for vocals or an SM57 for snare.

G.

[TimOBrien]

Yup, its a standard.

I use a MD-421 about a foot up and out from the bell, then a large diameter condenser mic out about 5ft and head-high, pointed toward the center of the sax. Mix till sweet.

The sound from a sax radiates from the entire instrument, not just from the bell.
A ribbon mic is golden but not in most folks budget!!

[TFunkadelic]

Forgive me for being a complete and 100% nublet when it comes to microphones, but with the reading I've done here in the last few weeks I would have been of the opinion that a dynamic mic was less than ideal for studio applications, and that it would be beter to use either a more spendy condenser or ribbon mic for recording something such as horns. What is it about the MD-421 that puts it above other dynamic mics in this regard? (sorry if this recieves the stupid question of the year award)

[sweetnubs]

again the 421 is generally used for live micing, not studio micing folks. At least at the professionall level. sheesh . . . they never listen. Dynamics are good for live situations because they are less sensitive and therefore pick up less bleed from other instruments, less opportunity for feedback (although there are ways to combat this), etc. It is less than ideal. capiche?

[Han]

I've recorded tons of saxophones, from soprano's to baritons and the best sounds I get is with a LDC like the Neumenn M149, second best is the MXL V77 and my third choice will be the Sennheiser MD441, the MD421 is great as well as long as it is a MK1, the grey version of the MD421.

I've not used a SP B1 for sax yet, but I can imagine it will do the job just fine.
Neither have I used a Beyer M201 for sax, but I'm almost sure it will do great.

The MD441 is a wonderful dynamic, very smooth sounding and very rejective, plus a very nice off axis response.

That's why the mic isn't cheap like a SM57.

[TFunkadelic]

Abou how much do these MXL V77 mics cost new? And the Neuman? Neither of them seem to be availible from Musicians Friend or WWBW. I imagine the Neuman is quite a bit more expensive, but how do they compare quality wise? My goal here is to be able to get a recording that when people here it on a mid priced stereo system (1-2,000$ to me) they don't immediately say "yuck, you can tell this was slapped together in a home recording studio."

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by sweetnubs

again the 421 is generally used for live micing, not studio micing folks. At least at the professionall level. sheesh . . . they never listen.

That might have something to do with the smoke your blowin' Nubsey.

421s are used in-studio all the time; I'd be willing to bet there's a sax miked up with a 421 right now somewhere in this world. 421s have been used to record the likes of Lou Marini, Clarence Clemens and Johnny Hodges and are on the short list for sax usage by engineers the likes of Bruce Sweeden and Don Smith. Can't get much more pro in-studio than that.

Yes, 421s are used on-stage more than the rest, but that mainly because they can handle the road stage better than a ribbon or condenser.

Royers are orgasmic for brass, as would be a U87. But TFunk is looking for a mic in the $200-$400; what you're hawking costs 10 times that range.

I'm not saying the 421 is the only way to go, but I just want to set the record straight instead of giving the rookie bad information that a 421 is a road-only microphone on the pro level. That's just plain untrue.

G.

[TFunkadelic]

How coincidental. So I'm sitting on the couch watching "I Love The 80's" on VH1, and what do ya know, they featured a music video where they were recording on to a 421. Is the 421 also decent on recording vocals? I have a friend and the two of us are thinking a bit about cutting a vocal/tenor sax duet album. She has a more smooth laid back voice, "sultry" if you will. I'm hoping I can find a mic that is fairly competent on both the sax and vocals so I don't have to shell out hundreds for each.

[Han]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

That might have something to do with the smoke your blowin' Nubsey.

421s are used in-studio all the time; I'd be willing to bet there's a sax miked up with a 421 right now somewhere in this world. 421s have been used to record the likes of Lou Marini, Clarence Clemens and Johnny Hodges and are on the short list for sax usage by engineers the likes of Bruce Sweeden and Don Smith. Can't get much more pro in-studio than that.

Yes, 421s are used on-stage more than the rest, but that mainly because they can handle the road stage better than a ribbon or condenser.

Royers are orgasmic for brass, as would be a U87. But TFunk is looking for a mic in the $200-$400; what you're hawking costs 10 times that range.

I'm not saying the 421 is the only way to go, but I just want to set the record straight instead of giving the rookie bad information that a 421 is a road-only microphone on the pro level. That's just plain untrue.

G.

The MD421 is a great microphone, but not the best for recording saxophone, the MD441 is simply better for that application.

Why not ask Bruce Swedien in person what he prefers for saxophone? You can find Bruce at Harmony central, at Craig Anderton's board.

[Han]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

Abou how much do these MXL V77 mics cost new? And the Neuman? Neither of them seem to be availible from Musicians Friend or WWBW. I imagine the Neuman is quite a bit more expensive, but how do they compare quality wise? My goal here is to be able to get a recording that when people here it on a mid priced stereo system (1-2,000$ to me) they don't immediately say "yuck, you can tell this was slapped together in a home recording studio."

The V77S is discontinued, but I guess it can be found for some $350.

The Neumann M149 is near $4000 and of course it sounds a tad better than the V77S, but the sound is much alike.

The sound of a dynamic like the MD421 is completely different, less detailed and less airy, dynamics sound simply different from condensers.

About slapping things together in a home studio: all the fancy gear is just tools, no more, no less. A really great engineer will make a better sound with a portastudio than a moron with a two inch machine and a Neve board.

[Juggernaut]

I've had great results on tenor with an EV RE20 it gives a nice warm sound compared to some of the condensors I've used. The MD421 would probably be fine I just haven't used it for that. I can't comment on the alto becasue I've had the luxury of using a TLM103 on that, but it just doesn't sound as nice on tennor. Maybe its that the tenor sounds better with less detail. Anyway you can find the RE20 for about 400 dollars, plus its agreat dynamic all together.(vocals, kick, etc.)

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Han

The MD421 is a great microphone, but not the best for recording saxophone, the MD441 is simply better for that application.

Why not ask Bruce Swedien in person what he prefers for saxophone? You can find Bruce at Harmony central, at Craig Anderton's board.

And while you're at it, ask him where he can get a 441 for under $400.

Come on people, there are a dozen mics that are as good or better than the 421. I know that, you know that, we all know that. Depending on the sound I'm looking for, I'd even be tempted to try a C414 over the Sennheisers. While I've not tried it for sax myself, I've also heard that even an EV RE20 is nice for sax and at a street price of $399 it just barely comes in at the top of TFunk's budget.

But at the stated budget, not $3000, not $2000, not $800, not even $400 for the EV, you won't find a more oft-used microphone for saxophone live and in the studio than the 421. Would it be Bruce Swedien's first choice? Most likely not. Is it on his short list of sax mics and has he and many other top shelf engineers used them for sax in pro studio situations? From what I have read in the past, yes and yes.

What's so hard to believe or understand about all that? I thought this kind of bullshit posturing and flack over microphone discussions was reserved for the Microphones forum, people.

G.

[TFunkadelic]

I could maybe stretch the budget up to $500, but if possible I don't really want to spend more than 400. I'm just getting started out, and at the moment all I have is a pair of MXL 603's and a $40 Shure dynamic mic, so I'd imagine anything will be a step up from me. I also am expecting to recieve my Tascam FW-1884 friday or early next week and I'll bet that will be quite a step up from using the fairly pathetic DJ mixer I've been using as a mic preamp.

Knowing that the 421 would be significantly less airy than a comporably priced condenser mic is a bit of a turn off. However, considering the return policy of Musicians Friend I believe I'll order both the 421 along with something like the Blue Bluebird (does anyone have anything to say about that or comporably priced mics?) and then send back whichever.

[Juggernaut]

Originally Posted by TFunkadelic

I could maybe stretch the budget up to $500, but if possible I don't really want to spend more than 400. I'm just getting started out, and at the moment all I have is a pair of MXL 603's and a $40 Shure dynamic mic, so I'd imagine anything will be a step up from me. I also am expecting to recieve my Tascam FW-1884 friday or early next week and I'll bet that will be quite a step up from using the fairly pathetic DJ mixer I've been using as a mic preamp.

Knowing that the 421 would be significantly less airy than a comporably priced condenser mic is a bit of a turn off. However, considering the return policy of Musicians Friend I believe I'll order both the 421 along with something like the Blue Bluebird (does anyone have anything to say about that or comporably priced mics?) and then send back whichever.

I'd try a AT4040, or KSM27 condensor before the Blue bird and and definitly an RE20 over the 421 (although a great mic) on sax. I belive you will be pleased with the 421 or Blue bird but both (especially the blue bird) have better aplications than sax and there are other mics in a close range that will sound slightly better than them. Another mic I might look into is the sm7, that little thing keeps surpising me, come to think of it i might go try that.

[TFunkadelic]

Thanks for the suggestions Juggernaut. I like the looks of the AT4040 and KSM27. The RE20 looks nice, but it's a bit spendy for me for now. Next summer when I begin the serious construction on my home studio I'll start looking more seriously at spending serious money on microphones. Between the AT4040 and KSM27 which would you prefer? Or I suppose a better question is, what sound characteristics are specific to them?