tape warmth. and harmonic distortion

[track pusha]

hey everybody

i was wondering if i took the tracks i record on my pc, and recorded them to a 4 track tape recorder, then send them back to the pc. would that give me more of an analog warmth. i've been reading around and many people seem to do this, and like it better than just leaving it srtaight digital. the only problem i've heard is that you have to get a recorder that doen't have much hiss. I have use cubase se, to record, and use a m-audio fw 1814 as my soundcard. if using this method to mix down would give me a better sound then i'm willing to try it, but i just want to know if it's worth it.

is there anybody here that uses this method, and if so what recorder would you reccomend, with the least amount of hiss. so far i've seen the http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...se_pid/240781/
as an option.

[Farview]

People do do this but not with a cassette 4 track. It is common practice to record everything to 2 inch, then transfer to Protools. Or Record everything digitally, edit, then transfer to 2 inch for the tape sound. Great analog can sound better than great digital. Cheap analog sounds worse than cheap digital.

However, if you try it and like the sound, go for it.

[track pusha]

Originally Posted by Farview

People do do this but not with a cassette 4 track. It is common practice to record everything to 2 inch, then transfer to Protools. Or Record everything digitally, edit, then transfer to 2 inch for the tape sound. Great analog can sound better than great digital. Cheap analog sounds worse than cheap digital.

However, if you try it and like the sound, go for it.

ok, because i've heard people say that if you cant afford a 2 inch that that would be the way. i've heard that people even used hi fi vcr's. what would be a cheap 2 inch that you would suggest.

[JazzMang]

there exist very few that would qualify as 'cheap' and 'worthwhile' in the same sentence.
And good luck buying that 2 inch tape nowadays. :-/

[track pusha]

ok, what about mastering to a hi fi vcr, would that give me some analog warmth

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by track pusha

ok, because i've heard people say that if you cant afford a 2 inch that that would be the way. i've heard that people even used hi fi vcr's.

... which would defeat the purpose, because a VCR doesn't compress in the same manner that typical magnetic tape does. It's a whole different animal, basically.

If you can't afford a 2 inch, then get a 1/4 " or something along those lines.

[track pusha]

Originally Posted by chessrock

... which would defeat the purpose, because a VCR doesn't compress in the same manner that typical magnetic tape does. It's a whole different animal, basically.

If you can't afford a 2 inch, then get a 1/4 " or something along those lines.

what do you mean, because most vcr's have a limiter built in?? if so there are some old hi fi vcr's with out the limiter and have volume controls.

[FALKEN]

track pusha -

there is a lot of info in the analog forum about this. but the two most common options are basically (1) record onto PC as usual, mix down onto a 1/4" stereo reel2reel, or (2) track onto a multitrack reel to reel, maybe a 1/4" or 1/2" 8-track, and then mix down onto your PC. I use a 1/2" 16-track reel for tracking, and then mix down onto my PC.

however, I have a question for you. You do mostly hip-hop, right? how do you create your beats? do you use vinyl? if yes, you should already have that "analog" sound. if you use recycle or something to sample other hip-hop songs, and THEY used vinyl, you should have that "analog" sound. if you are using MIDI, keyboards, and other PC generated tones.... then I see why you want some warmth. so, what is your process?

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by track pusha

what do you mean, because most vcr's have a limiter built in?? if so there are some old hi fi vcr's with out the limiter and have volume controls.

Track, I'm not totally up to speed on the science behind it all, but I do know that VCR tape isn't going to saturate the way typical magnetic tape does when pushed. It's a whole different beast altogether. Not that it's a bad medium or anything, because it is perfectly acceptable in most cases.

[JazzMang]

In all honesty, your song is going to sound much better if you invest in some nice pre's and good mics and some good mastering equipment (multi-band compressors are a good start).
This tape warmth that you seek only really matters when the recording itself is great... it will not make a mediocre performance/recording sound better b/c of saturation.
If you are interested in the mastering aspect alone, I would invest my time and money into some good multi-band compressors, program limiters, etc...

[Farview]

Originally Posted by track pusha

what do you mean, because most vcr's have a limiter built in?? if so there are some old hi fi vcr's with out the limiter and have volume controls.

The high fi audio on a vcr is encoded into the picture signal. It is not like audio tape. (there is a normal audio stripe on video, but it is mono and noisey, that is what you hear when the tracking isn't adjusted properly)

You will also, most likely, have a 14k whine in everything you record on the VCR. That is caused by the picture scanning frequency. The 'Hi-FI' on the hi-fi vcrs are a comparative term. It isn't that they sound great, it just that they sound so much better than before.

[Cloneboy Studio]

You know the analog vs. digital debate has gone too far when less experienced recordists start running to really poor analog formats.

Trust me, *NOTHING* sounds less professional and more home recorded than 4 track cassette portastudios.

They are hissy, have mediocre fidelity, and generally just sound cheap.

A 99 dollar version of Cubase with a Soundblaster is a better recording solution IMHO.

Plus, hand synchronizing a bunch of tracks bounced from the portastudio to digital would be irritating.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

Trust me, *NOTHING* sounds less professional and more home recorded than 4 track cassette portastudios.

I can think of a few things that might sound less professional.

You could try re-tracking everything by running it through a cheap guitar amplifer while mic'ing it with a Radio Shack microphone, straight to the mic input on a soundblaster card.

You could then down-sample all of that to 22 khz, 8-bit and run it through a BBE sonic maximizer.

You could then run that track just slightly out of phase with the original signal.

That would probably sound less professional than bouncing to a cassette 4-track. Granted, I can't think of many more things that would sound less professional, but I'll keep thinking on this one.

[kylen]

Ouch - your post is even hurtin my ears Chessrock!

[Cloneboy Studio]

Originally Posted by chessrock

I can think of a few things that might sound less professional.

Of course I meant in a way that was less than sabotaging oneself.

[track pusha]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

track pusha -

there is a lot of info in the analog forum about this. but the two most common options are basically (1) record onto PC as usual, mix down onto a 1/4" stereo reel2reel, or (2) track onto a multitrack reel to reel, maybe a 1/4" or 1/2" 8-track, and then mix down onto your PC. I use a 1/2" 16-track reel for tracking, and then mix down onto my PC.

however, I have a question for you. You do mostly hip-hop, right? how do you create your beats? do you use vinyl? if yes, you should already have that "analog" sound. if you use recycle or something to sample other hip-hop songs, and THEY used vinyl, you should have that "analog" sound. if you are using MIDI, keyboards, and other PC generated tones.... then I see why you want some warmth. so, what is your process?

well sometimes i sample, but i mostly compose my songs using reason, and a midi controller. sampling is ok, but i like making my songs 100% mine.

also where could i find some of these 1/4 reel to reel, i've been searching but i've found nothing.

thanks everyone for the information so far.

[FALKEN]

where in cali are you?? there might be some places on hollywood blvd near all of the tattoo and porno shops. heh heh.

really tho you can search on ebay for local listings and then go and check the machine out before you actually pay for it. brands to look for are tascam, fostex, otari, teac, pioneer. just make sure of a few things:

-they guarantee it works with no fine print (unless you know of a repair shop and that can get expensive
-it didn't come from 911 dispatch or a studio where it will have 10,000 hours on it
-you want a 2-track, not a 4-track (which will only record and play 2 tracks at a time anyway)
-if your system is +4 it has +4 ins and outs, or -10 and -10, or if your system does both don't worry about it

another option would be to try to find a refurbed one online. I think there is a guy called VintageTX that does this.

also keep in mind you will have to also buy tape, which isn't cheap, as well as hold-down tape, and a take up reel. you can buy tape at www.usrecordingmedia.com. you should also do a search in the analog forum, or on google for how to clean your machine (and how not to clean it). a good analog r2r requires much more time and care than a digital recorder.

[ROblows]

Originally Posted by chessrock

You could try re-tracking everything by running it through a cheap guitar amplifer while mic'ing it with a Radio Shack microphone, straight to the mic input on a soundblaster card.

You could then down-sample all of that to 22 khz, 8-bit and run it through a BBE sonic maximizer.

You could then run that track just slightly out of phase with the original signal.

...then mix it with headphones.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by track pusha

also where could i find some of these 1/4 reel to reel, i've been searching but i've found nothing.

http://cgi.ebay.com/STUDER-REVOX-B67...QQcmdZViewItem

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by Farview

http://cgi.ebay.com/STUDER-REVOX-B67...QQcmdZViewItem

fine print:
"Policy for Auctions Sold As-Is:

As-is means there will be no refunds for any reason whatsoever. That means if you receive the unit and it doesn't work or it is missing components necessary for it to function properly or if it is damaged or if you don't like it or if it's not the right size,color,too dirty, or scratched, etc, there will be NO refund, NO adjustment, NO returns, NO compensation. You should keep this in mind while bidding and bid as if this item is in the worst condition possible. "

[cringe]

not for a beginner, unless you are near a service center that will work on revox's. IMO, of course. shit, who knows. if that one works it would be phat. naw, its phat. especially for $300. that would be a damn nice machine. (if the shipping company doesn't drop it from shoulder height like the last machine I bought)

[Farview]

That was just the first one I found on Ebay. I couldn't remember the model # of the 1/4 tascam or fostex machines, so I looked up the Studor.

You might have an easier time finding them under home stereo instead of pro audio. There are tons of 1/4 8track machines on ebay.

[track pusha]

ok thank you everyone for your help, and suggestions.

Falken, if i understood you right, your saying that i should get a 1/4 reel to reel right?

and another thing is it hard to work with the tape, i've heard from people that it can be a nightmare sometimes. i dont think it would be hard since i'll just be recording my mix to the machine then then back to the pc, but i could be wrong.

also with these machines is there alot of hiss

[Farview]

You have to have the tape machine aligned and calibrated. It will be calibrated for a speciific type of tape, as long as you use just one tape formula, the calibrations should stay for a while.

Yes these decks have hiss, but that is part of that tape sound. Some of them will have noise reduction (DBX, Dolby S, etc...) which helps with the hiss, but some people think it ruins the sound.

The truth is, tape machines are a big can of worms. Studios that run these machines have in-house guys that align and calibrate them on a regular basis. They tend to be big, hot, sometimes tempramental things that require a lot of maintainence to perform at their optimal. There is a reason why all the sound engineers in the 60's, 70's, and into the 80's were electrical engineers first.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by track pusha

Falken, if i understood you right, your saying that i should get a 1/4 reel to reel right?

if you are trying to transfer to tape and back to pc again, yes.

the most often recommended machine in the analog forum is the tascam 32, because it was made for home recording, so you don't have to be an electrical engineer to make it work once its set up (usually), like Farview says.

expect some hiss. thats just how it goes. but not like cassette hiss. r2r tape is much thicker than casette tape, and runs much faster. the hiss will be barely noticeable. the thickness and width would be comparable to number of bits, and the speed it runs is comparable to bitrate. most stereo machines like the tascam 32 run at 15 ips (inches per second) and are 1/4". anything more is considered overkill (like 96 kHz) but like 96 kHz there are people who swear by it.

if you don't like the idea of hiss, I would look at some plugs or some rack gear. the blockfish is a nice plugin compressor that adds some tape-like sound. supposedly the distressor gives a good emulation as well but I haven't thrown down that kind of $$ yet.

[Farview]

15 ips is good for that tape saturation sound. 30 ips is cleaner and has more headroom, but it doesn't smoosh the lows together as well. It's a toss-up which one is better, it has more to do with the sound you are trying to get.