Reverb, ect...

[Homeville]

Well, I posted this in the Newbie section and promptly got flamed. It wasn't pretty. You guys seem like a much more tollerant bunch who might get what I'm asking. So here it goes:

So, I want to make sparse, scratchy, reverb-drenched songs. Like a broken down barn.

I have: A TASCAM 424 MKII (and headphones), 2 mics (a Green Bullet for vocals, and SM58 for whatever), and assorted instruments. What else do I need? What do I use for reverb on everything that isn't through my guitar amplifier (which has nice reverb)? I'm particularly concerned about my voice.

Should I use a plan old guitar pedal reverb?

Do I need a pre-amp?

I like lofi, but I want it to sound decent, demo quality (indie-label demo quality not, say, major label demo quality).

Thanks in advance!

[lurgan liar]

Hey man i have a song that i made in my mates garage ....its not great sound quality ...and we plugged the mic into my Boss GT-6 FX Pedal ...and added phaser lol ...its kinda funny ... i could send u it if you like ....i think it matches the description of the type of sound you are going for ....

[Fieva]

Homeville, did you consider my advice on plugins earlier?

[FALKEN]

plugins? what the hell?? have you ever heard of a 4-track??


now, to answer your question.,

there is tons of stuff you can look into. yes, guitar efx can work. I used guitar efx on my 4-track all the time with great results. there are also efx made for recording. I have on hand an alesis Quadraverb (digital multifx) and a Fostex 3180 reverb (analog spring). there are hundreds more, and you would run them using the auxes on your 424.

[jpmorris]

I'm using a Zoom RFX-2000, which I bought broken on e-bay and repaired. I'm pretty happy with it, and it can also be used for other things, such as delays.

I just happen to have a quick example of using it as a pitch-shifter for that 'Marvin the Paranoid Android' effect. This was done as a joke:

http://www.jpmorris.force9.co.uk/music/marvin.wav.mp3

Here's a quick sample of the plate reverb (at the end):

http://www.jpmorris.force9.co.uk/music/rfx_dan2.wav.mp3

[Beck]

First thing to know is don’t feel bad about being flamed by Blue Bear (Bruce Valeriani) because that’s what he does. He is a frustrated phony that has set himself up as an expert, basically invented the notion that he is “something” and has a small following of undiscerning little urchins that don’t know any better.

He talks like Jesse Ventura, but looks like Gilligan and would melt into a quivering mass of “Yes sir, no sir, I’m sorry sir” if ever confronted in person. Blue Bear is just a member name he has chosen and it’s an insult to real bears everywhere. His abusive behavior is a front that he can only get away with in cyberspace.

Also, post counts and rep points may or may not mean anything. You will soon figure out who the decent folks are regardless. Some people have relatively low rep points because they speak their minds against the prevailing groupthink. Some people have ridiculously high rep points because they setup bogus accounts and give themselves points.

Second thing to know is sometimes there are legitimate misunderstandings even in the Analog Forum that I would characterize as family squabbles that can get pretty ugly, but then all is forgiven.

The difference is the atmosphere created by members like Bruce is a chronic condition like a city’s crime problem. The handful of instigators are the same culprits over and over, harassing and picking on members for sport. The primary reason they are even here is to discourage and sabotage, probably because they feel small and helpless in their real worlds. It’s not because of misunderstandings, but rather malicious intent from the get go.

If homerecording.com ever becomes too much for you go to the following group where this bullshit isn’t tolerated for a minute.

http://tascamforums.com

Anyway, about reverb. There are a lot of good processors to choose from. Falken mentioned the Alesis Quadraverb. I’ve had one since it came out and I like it a lot. It sounds great and is very versatile. Another good choice is the Lexicon Reflex. If you want something simple and easy the Alesis Midiverb II has about every treatment you need at the push of a button – no tweaking necessary or available. The Midiverb III gives you a little more tweaking but not so much as to become a distraction. If I had to get rid of all of my reverbs except one I would keep the Lexicon LXP-1 just for the sound.

The above processors are all older models. My newest processor is an Alesis Quadraverb 2. They just haven’t really improved anything for me to buy the latest stuff. In fact, you get a lot less in some of the latest budget processors in my opinion.

If you want new stuff you can get something like the Lexicon MPX110 for less than $200.00. I personally would not trade any of my older stuff for one though – just my opinion.

Whatever you get old or new, stick with a company with good support. The manuals for nearly all the Lexicon and Alesis stuff are on their respective websites to download for free. Zoom is also great stuff.

You don’t need a preamp. On the 424 MKII just take the output from Effect Send 1 and connect it to one input of the reverb processor. You can use the left & right Sub inputs on the mixer to return the stereo signal form the reverb to the portastudio.

One more thing, if a thread you start ever turns into an abusive flame fest you can close the thread so no one else can post. You can also report posts to the moderator by clicking on the red & white triangle at the top right of each post.

Welcome to the Analog Forum and good hunting,

-Tim

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by Beck

First thing to know is don’t feel bad about being flamed by Blue Bear (Bruce Valeriani) because that’s what he does. He is a frustrated phony that has set himself up as an expert, basically invented the notion that he is “something” and has a small following of undiscerning little urchins that don’t know any better.

He talks like Jesse Ventura, but looks like Gilligan and would melt into a quivering mass of “Yes sir, no sir, I’m sorry sir” if ever confronted in person. Blue Bear is just a member name he has chosen and it’s an insult to real bears everywhere. His abusive behavior is a front that he can only get away with in cyberspace.

What a load of bollocks.... but hardly surprising coming from a no-talent wannabe such as yourself....

[Beck]

Originally Posted by Blue Bear Sound

What a load of bollocks.... but hardly surprising coming from a no-talent wannabe such as yourself....

How telling that you quoted my opinion of you and not any technical advice I gave in this thread. First of all a person has to want to be something and have no talent for it to be a no-talent wannabe (you may know all about that). Simply having a low opinion of you, Bruce, does not qualify anyone for the position of no-talent wannabe.

And you know all about me and my talents or anyone else’s because??? You certainly have not demonstrated anything but hot air. You are a perpetual rookie because you’re no good. It’s obvious that you’re no good because all you do is lie in wait here to try to impose your limited experience and perspective as the standard by which all others must lower themselves to.

Like I said... you can get away with it here in the fantasy world of cyberspace, but at the end of the day you are still really Bruce Valeriani. You have always been you so I guess you're used to it. I can’t fathom how you look in the mirror everyday and not feel pity for the thing staring back at you.

I guess if you were someone interesting and cool first, and then had to become Bruce Valeriani you would be disapointed [Edited: The original said "blow your brains out" instead of " be disappointed" but I thought that was too harsh even to say to someone like Bruce. Jesus loves Bruce, but since I'm not God I don't know what He sees in him. Still, suggesting suicide is probably bad.] I know for me, having to trade places with you would be like climbing into a wet bathing suit. I just couldn’t do it. Good luck though.

Oh, and thanks for the negative rep, which I expected. But that doesn’t work with me. It won’t change what I think or how I speak my mind. It only proves you are the little weasel I say you are.

[60's guy]

Originally Posted by Beck

First thing to know is don’t feel bad about being flamed by Blue Bear (Bruce Valeriani) because that’s what he does. He is a frustrated phony that has set himself up as an expert, basically invented the notion that he is “something” and has a small following of undiscerning little urchins that don’t know any better.

Beck,

That was good advice you offered. Absolutely not one person should feel bad or intimitaded by being flamed by the BEAR. When I first signed on here the BEAR and I got into it over Monster cables...of all things. How trivial on his part AND mine!

There's no doubt that BEAR is knowledgeable.

I respect his knowledge, but I do not respect his dimeanor and the way he talks down to many people, especially when it involves digital v analog.

I'm 56 years old. BEAR is 35 or somewhere thereabouts.

I think that 20 year difference and his apparent lack of exposure to analog recording has warped his mind and shaped him into the BEAR that he is.

BEARS are not normally friendly. They prefer tearing your campsite apart and eating everything in sight.

BEARS usually lack taste buds also.

I've also listened to enough of his mixes enough to determine that he is a minor recording engineer hoping to break into the major leagues.

There's also no doubt that he has ZERO tolerance for anyone less than he considers knowledgeable as he is, or anyone who refutes or challenges him.

The remainder of the comments within your post are spot on.

Don't ever stop speaking your mind! I've had my head handed to me more than once (at other forums) for speaking my mind.....<read> truth.

You're a good man, Beck.

I respect good men.

[mr.rich]

you could buy a spring unit for cheap. orban, masteroom. these get the scratchy muddy verb you might be lookin for.

you could buy a digital unit like suggested. alesis are ok. for around 125 you can get a yamaha spx90 which has been a studio and live workorse for ever. very easy to use and decent verb which you can adjust many factors on.

you could opt to buy a cheap echo instead. used right it works like verb, fast rate medium feedback. scored a roland sde 2000 on ebay for 65 bucks. fun little unit.

holy grail reverb pedal might do the trick also and you could use it live to boot. weird sorta spring sounds off that thing.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by 60's guy

Beck,

That was good advice you offered. Absolutely not one person should feel bad or intimitaded by being flamed by the BEAR. When I first signed on here the BEAR and I got into it over Monster cables...of all things. How trivial on his part AND mine!

There's no doubt that BEAR is knowledgeable.

I respect his knowledge, but I do not respect his dimeanor and the way he talks down to many people, especially when it involves digital v analog.

I'm 56 years old. BEAR is 35 or somewhere thereabouts.

I think that 20 year difference and his apparent lack of exposure to analog recording has warped his mind and shaped him into the BEAR that he is.

BEARS are not normally friendly. They prefer tearing your campsite apart and eating everything in sight.

BEARS usually lack taste buds also.

I've also listened to enough of his mixes enough to determine that he is a minor recording engineer hoping to break into the major leagues.

There's also no doubt that he has ZERO tolerance for anyone less than he considers knowledgeable as he is, or anyone who refutes or challenges him.

The remainder of the comments within your post are spot on.

Don't ever stop speaking your mind! I've had my head handed to me more than once (at other forums) for speaking my mind.....<read> truth.

You're a good man, Beck.

I respect good men.

I respect what you have to say as well, and how you say it.

Yeah, I will concede most people know something here, even Valeriani. However, having been in the music and recording world for about 25 years now, it’s the basic things he doesn’t know that I find astonishing. That combined with his my-way-or-the-highway bullarky is too much. Yes, the attitude he has is something else – very unbecoming. And for all his ranting it does more to reveal how unsure of himself he is.

He’s not a pompous ass who knows everything. He’s a fearful little person who knows he doesn’t know everything, but wants to appear that he does. It's also a little annoying when someone like Bruce talks down to you but has to stand on a box to do it. Have you ever been scolded by a 2-year old? Yeah, it's kinda like that only not as cute.

I really don’t care for the bully type, even if he is just a cyber bully who looks like a weasel in person – they’re all the same to me. Even if he was the kid that got shoved in his locker in school he needs to get over it.

-Tim

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally Posted by Beck

How telling that you quoted my opinion of you and not any technical advice I gave in this thread.

I quoted the part that I considered bollocks... I didn't think that was such a difficult concept for you to understand.........

As to the rest of your rhetoric.... *yawn*

[Mo-Kay]

There's no doubt that BEAR is knowledgeable.

I respect his knowledge, but I do not respect his dimeanor and the way he talks down to many people

excactly. (plus 10 characters)

[Homeville]

Well, thanks so much Beck and Mr. Rich (and others)for the advice. These suggestions were very helpful, and exactly what I was looking for!

I have to admit, I was pretty discouraged yesterday with the whole Blue Bear thing. I lashed out pretty hard (which I never do) with the full brunt of my English major angst But now that I know he's just a pathetic ass, and there are helpful knowlegable people around, the whole thing seems pretty trite. Even the way he responds with a little face after getting completely schooled seems pretty childish.

Seriously, thanks guys.

[Fieva]

Naysayers come in many shapes and forms....it's up to you to rise above that and stay true to yourself. Keep up the good work.

[Dr ZEE]

Originally Posted by Homeville

I have to admit, I was pretty discouraged yesterday with the whole Blue Bear thing. I lashed out pretty hard (which I never do) with the full brunt of my English major angst .

"Let me try to re-encourage you ,... sort of , by saying this:
A Cradle Mountain Crow, sipping pure blue water from Dove Lake after snacking on dead rabbit shall not comment nor advise A Hunting Coyote drinking muddy water from Buffalo footprint on subject of water quality.

Also driking pure blue water does not turn a Crow into an Arctic Bear

**********
As for 'how to achieve your goal' ... I'd say the best way would be actually to find a broken down barn and record there... I also would hang The Green Bullet from the ceiling main beam using heavy hook and rusty chain, "as an opposite to high quality studio mic stand ... that is for Performance Encouragement Purpose

Of course, due to the fact, that in the "real world" (...heh heh), the real thigs are luxury, so you may try to use some reverb effect(s) and tweak it to its death.... you may be lucky finding something 'perfect' for your needs. The problem is, that it is really hard to advise on which one... simply because it is really hard to know what exactly you are after (I mean, "sparse, scratchy, reverb-drenched, like a broken down barn" sounds pretty cool as description, but, really what does this sounds like ???? It can be very subjective, you know...

when you record something, drop a note...in case if there'll be any chance to listen. Good luck and stuff...

/respects

[Fieva]

Hey Zee. I checked out your site. That looks real good.

[SteveMac]

I was going to suggest a empty room, garage or something like that myself. I've done some nice verby recordings in garages with a pzm. PZMs are great for picking up the whole room sound. But, if you want it "drenched" then you might need a reverb unit. Actually I wonder how much reverb is actually in a barn with all that wood and hay, and especially if was broken down but anyway good luck!

[FALKEN]

you could always run an aux out into a speaker in the garage and mic that from like 6 feet away. with a 57 of course.

[analogelectric]

I've been happy with a low-fi tone by running vocals thru a semi-cruddy (or fully cruddy) PA that has a spring verb and mic'ing the speaker with an SM57 or what have you; definition with top-end scratch.

I have a Horner harp mic but I find myself wanting a little more "bite" from it. I found (in Minneapolis) back in 1998 a surplus electronics store that sold old CB mics for $2.50, I bought a handful, refit them with XLR's, sold some of them on eBay for $100 a pop, and gave them to other studios around town and they LOVE them. With a little EQ and compression I can get a great current/retro Brit sound ala Billy Childish sorta thing; akin to using an EV 635a but with a bit more top-end scratch.

I like the real spring verbs even if the dry/wet mix is almost nil. There's a nice amount of break up with voltage controlled spring verbs unlike digital verbs. I have owned the Yamaha SPX90 series and I hated it. Call me a creature of disaster habit but nothing in digital (outboard or otherwise) sounds the same to me. Digital plates and spring verbs in this case doesn't do it for me, too many variables it doesn't/can't account for within the real world.

Really tho, I still own my TASCAM 464mkII (I think that's the model number - a cassette 4 track with extra inputs/bells and whistles) and I've been happy with any tone when I'd make demos for people using two Neumann U47 tube longbody mics plugged into the 4-track from the mics PS to capture sound (especially vocals). But then I'd be mixing the 4-track thru a Trident Series 80 console with Manley Vari-Mu's so I guess my point is kinda mute. Kinda sorta not really tho. Can you take the tracks to a pro studio for mixing? That might help or at least give you an idea on how to approach your recordings in the future based on what the engineer has to say. I guess it depends on budget but yet again you can at least pick the brain of someone in "the know".

That's my opinion,
-- Adam Lazlo

[Beck]

Originally Posted by analogelectric

I found (in Minneapolis) back in 1998 a surplus electronics store that sold old CB mics for $2.50, I bought a handful, refit them with XLR's, sold some of them on eBay for $100 a pop, and gave them to other studios around town and they LOVE them. With a little EQ and compression I can get a great current/retro Brit sound ala Billy Childish sorta thing; akin to using an EV 635a but with a bit more top-end scratch.

No kidding? That's a riot! Were they just el cheapo coffin style like Cobra or Uniden CB mics? I’ve got those and various powered and unpowered ham radio mics all over the place. Never tried that though.

[analogelectric]

Originally Posted by Beck

No kidding? That's a riot! Were they just el cheapo coffin style like Cobra or Uniden CB mics? I’ve got those and various powered and unpowered ham radio mics all over the place. Never tried that though.

Yup, just to clarify it's not like the crystal Astatic mics, the CB' I found had a 5 pin connector and were dynamic... yeah like little black coffins you'd associate with "Smokey and the Bandit" (breaker breaker 1-9 you got your ears on? -- sorta thing). They're black with a thumb on/off and a "coiled" cable.

The one's I bought didn't have any brand name or any name for that matter.

Beck, I can post a pic of the one I kept for myself if you'd like to compare.

It was really easy to convert 5 pin to 3 pin XLR. No added ground noise and really not much extra gain from a mic pre needed.

-- Adam Lazlo

[Beck]

Originally Posted by analogelectric

Yup, just to clarify it's not like the crystal Astatic mics, the CB' I found had a 5 pin connector and were dynamic... yeah like little black coffins you'd associate with "Smokey and the Bandit" (breaker breaker 1-9 you got your ears on? -- sorta thing). They're black with a thumb on/off and a "coiled" cable.

The one's I bought didn't have any brand name or any name for that matter.

Beck, I can post a pic of the one I kept for myself if you'd like to compare.

It was really easy to convert 5 pin to 3 pin XLR. No added ground noise and really not much extra gain from a mic pre needed.

-- Adam Lazlo

If it's not too much trouble I'd like to see a pic when you have time.

-Tim

[analogelectric]

Originally Posted by Beck

If it's not too much trouble I'd like to see a pic when you have time.

-Tim

I guess it did have a brand/model name on the back...

"Telex Turner Road King 56"

Here's a pic of it:
http://homerecording.com/bbs/attachm...id=19876&stc=1

-- Adam Lazlo

[billyshuler]

You could get a cool lo-fi reverb by putting a computer speaker in your bathtub and micing the reflections on the other end of the bath tub. Just don't turn the water on. If the speaker has a bass control you'll probably want to turn it down a bit so your reverb doesn't get too muddy.