My mixes sound better a lower volumes

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

I remember reading of a mastering house that judged whether mixes were good enough to be mastered by if it sounded good very low as well as very loud. Why is this? What does it mean to have it sound better at a lower volume than loud? Are my mixes creamy and milky enough?

[Beck]

It has to do with the way the human ear perceives sound. Loud levels while mixing will give you a false sense of the level of high and especially low frequencies in your mix. This is because humans are most sensitive to midrange frequencies. If you mix too loudly your Lows and highs will disappear at lower volume. This is called the Fletcher-Munson effect, named after two researches that documented the phenomenon at Bell Labs in the early 1930’s.

-Tim

[Massive Master]

It "should" sound good at ANY volume - The problem with a lot of current music is that you can't crank it up. It ONLY sounds acceptable at low volume, because it's too squashed and fatiguing to turn it up.

Hopefully, your don't fall into that category...

Mixes should sound good cranked up - 90dB or better. A pop/rock/metal mix should sound dynamic and exciting. Percussive sounds should jump out and impact against you (as opposed to a wall of constant niose). It should still sound acceptable at low levels - Well below 80dB.

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

It's not too squashed because it's not mastered and the mix alone pales in comparison to the "loudness" of commercial cd's. I think what happened is that I didn't understand the input and output gain stages on my preamp(chandler tg2) when I recorded the guitars so they are distorted in places and this becomes more apparent the louder the volume and everything is extremely colored sounding. I started using the preamp right after I got it without reading the manual or just using common sense. You live and you learn I guess.

[masteringhouse]

Another issue other than compression is the color of the mix. A mix that contains a lot of high mid content can be just as fatiguing to the ears as hypercompressed material since the ear is more sensitive to these frequencies.

A good mix should stand up when raising it to a "reasonable level" as well as at lower volumes.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by BRIEFCASEMANX

Are my mixes creamy and milky enough?

Mmmm, who dat?

[giraffe]

i'll bet he's just scooped a bunca mids out in tracking and mixing, so at low volumes it's kinda like haveing the "loudness" switch on but at higher volumes it becomes apperant that thare aren't enough mids.

maby.....

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

no I think there might be too many mids actually, that and the guitar distorting in some places, too much "color" from the pre-amp, as well as each element maybe not having enough of it's own space aka too much frequency masking going on. Oh well it was a free demo recording for my friends, I nor do they have enough time/don't care enough to retrack or even remix. I'll post some samples for you guys to listen to probably tomorrow. Just a warning, you guys aren't going to like the music AT ALL. But you can probably give me some pointers production-wise.

[RAMI]

"My mixes sound better a lower volumes"

You're lucky. Mine only sound good when the volume's turned totally off.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by RAMI

"My mixes sound better a lower volumes"

You're lucky. Mine only sound good when the volume's turned totally off.

Ha that aint true RAMI.

Yeah could be that there are too much mids. Easy enough to work out if there are too many mids though. If you turn your volume up loud an your find it hard to be able to keep listening to it (your ears dont like the sound, not you own peronal take on the mix, but your ears) then your mids are too hi. 1k-2.5k is a nastt band width when too loud especialy when listened to at loud volumes. That will kill your hearing that band width, im sure.

[masteringhouse]

Yep the area around 2-3K is often times where people boost the freqs on elec. guitars, or can be due to micing directly on the cone of the speaker. This gets really nasty/shrill with distorted electrics and immediately makes me want to turn it off if done to excess.

I HATE that stuff ...

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

well here you go......my friends band Rebel Red Renegades

http://home.comcast.net/~briefcasema...down_2_mp3.mp3

http://home.comcast.net/~briefcasema...al_Mix_mp3.mp3

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

The Second One Sounds Better, But The Guitarist Was Using A Heavy Distortion And On The Other He Was Using An Overdrive Pedal.

[chessrock]

Actually, I think everyone here so far may have misunderstood your question.


Everyone thinks you meant that your stuff sounds better when you play it back at lower volumes.

But I think what you're trying to say is that your stuff sounds better when everyone is playing quieter.

This is very common, and has to do with a few factors:

1) Clipping, or exceeding the natural input headroom of all or parts of your signal chain.

2) Nasty-sounding distortion or cymbals that rear their ugly heads on the heavier / louder parts.

3) Playing too aggressively / hard. Takes away a lot of tone from the instrument. Example: on guitars, it accentuates the picking sound rather than the resonance of the strings. On bass, it accentuates the sharp "pluck" of the string, rather than the "thump" of the bass.

I always tell people: On the louder/heavier parts, don't play harder. Instead, play more intently and with more intensity, and that will come off to the listener as being heavier / louder.

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

Yeah I was definitely exceeding the natural headroom on my preamp, I had the input gain about as high as it would go and the output fader rolled back. Although I don't think everyone misunderstood my question, in regards to them playing to hard that is very intersting and something I never thought about. Especially with the guitar, because I know he has a decent enough amp, so i figured it was just bad mic placement that was getting the plucking sound, but now that i think about it he does play pretty hard especially during heavier/louder parts. Crappy cymbal sound/distortion was partly due to bad mic placement/bad mics though. The cymbals sounded slightly a little better in the room, although they were cracked . Thank you very much, any other input anyone has would be great.

[chessrock]

By the way, my comments weren't directed towards your samples you posted, as I didn't actually get a chance to listen to them. I was just posting a very general recommendation / suggestion based on past experiences.

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

Originally Posted by chessrock

By the way, my comments weren't directed towards your samples you posted, as I didn't actually get a chance to listen to them. I was just posting a very general recommendation / suggestion based on past experiences.

well thanks anyway it applied, and will help in the future.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by masteringhouse

Yep the area around 2-3K is often times where people boost the freqs on elec. guitars, or can be due to micing directly on the cone of the speaker. This gets really nasty/shrill with distorted electrics and immediately makes me want to turn it off if done to excess.

I HATE that stuff ...

Can you enlighten me a little on what you mean by micing directly on the cone? Where else would you palce the mic? By cone do you mean the speaker, or the bit in the middle of the speaker?

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

Can you enlighten me a little on what you mean by micing directly on the cone? Where else would you palce the mic? By cone do you mean the speaker, or the bit in the middle of the speaker?

Yea, he's talking about the speaker cone (directly in the middle of the speaker). That's why folks like to mic off-axis a lot of the time.

I generally mic just off the cone ... literally a half-inch or so to the side.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by ecktronic

Can you enlighten me a little on what you mean by micing directly on the cone? Where else would you palce the mic? By cone do you mean the speaker, or the bit in the middle of the speaker?

The "cone" of a speaker is the cone-shaped, larger, outer part of the loudspeaker. The central, dome-shapd part of the loudspeaker is called the "dustcap" (or sometimes just the "cap" or "dome") The ring where the two meet is called the "voice coil gap".

There is often a misnomer floating around where people call the central dustcap dome the "cone". This is technically not correct wording, and can cause some confusion. I, for example am confused as to whether MasteringHouse was referring to the dustcap dome or the cone. By his description of the shrill sounds (which I agree with entirely, BTW), it sounds like he may actually be referring to the dome and not the actual cone itself. I'll ask him to correct me if I'm wrong there. (wouldn't be the first time ).

One can mic the louspeaker anywhere they like on these loudspeakers, depending on their taste and the requirements of the song. Also placement of the mic pointing directly in at the speaker (on-axis) or at an angle (off-ais) makes a big difference too.

As always, there are exceptions, but in general here's how it breaks down. These each are assuming on-axis mic placement:

- Miking on the dome tends to accentuate the higher freqs and higher freq distortions.

- Miking on the voice coil tends to result in the lowest speaker-induced distortion and in that way gives the closest analog to the sound that is coming from the amplifier itself.

- Miking on the cone tends to accuentate the warmer, lower frequencies and produce lower amplitude and/or smoother transients, but it also tends to accentuate distortions caused by distortions in the surface of the cone itself that come when the voice coil tried pushing the cone faster than the physical material of the cone can respond (distortion by inertia.) The further from the center of the cone you get, the "warmer" the response but the greater the interial distortion.

The distortions (or lack thereof) mentioned above are not necessarily bad, sometimes such distortions are what give that cabinet it's particular sound, which might be desireable. Sometimes though they can be unwnted. The choice is up to the engineer as to what sounds best.

Moving mic orientation from on-axis to off-axis, like Chesrock and many others prefer, takes advantage of the off-axis response of the microphone and uses that to create a more favorable coloring of the sound. It can also, in some close-miked cardioids, reduce low frequency emphasis caused by "the proximity effect" present in most cardioid micrphones.

It takes a lot of expirimentation with different mics, placements and cabinets to determine wht you might like best for any given configuration. There is no one right answer that covers all situations. Many of us tend to gravitate towards favorite or familiar techniques. Mine happens to be almost identical to Chessrock's; I tend to like pointing in towards the voice coil with an SM57 at about 30-40 degress off axis at a distance of just a couple of inches myself. But this can easily change based upon cabinet type, song style and even the musician's playing style and effects pedals he like to use. Others may prefer other methods, and that's OK too. If we all sounded the same way, all music would sound the same. And if the Boy Bands taught us anything, they taught us that's not a good thing.

G.

[boingoman]

I would just like to point out that the voice coil gap is the circular slot behind the cone that the voice coil fits into, not the ring where the dustcap and cone meet. That is close to where the voice coil former is attached, though, and generally marks very near the place where the actual cone starts, an important thing to know. The dustcap isn't really part of the sound-producing part of the speaker, except by circumstance of being attached to the cone. This is part of the reason micing the cap cuts low end.

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

anyone have any comments for the mixes i posted?

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

There is often a misnomer floating around where people call the central dustcap dome the "cone". This is technically not correct wording, and can cause some confusion. I, for example am confused as to whether MasteringHouse was referring to the dustcap dome or the cone. By his description of the shrill sounds (which I agree with entirely, BTW), it sounds like he may actually be referring to the dome and not the actual cone itself. I'll ask him to correct me if I'm wrong there. (wouldn't be the first time ).

Thanks Glen.

Sorry for the confusion, yes I meant dome. I haven't really heard people refer to it that way usually but it's more technically correct.

BTW, Andy Johns (Zep, Hendrix, etc.) used to use a combination of 2 mics, one on axis to the dome (for brightness) and another 45 degrees to the dome then blends the two while maintaining phase between both. Good little technique.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by boingoman

I would just like to point out that the voice coil gap is the circular slot behind the cone that the voice coil fits into, not the ring where the dustcap and cone meet. That is close to where the voice coil former is attached, though, and generally marks very near the place where the actual cone starts, an important thing to know. The dustcap isn't really part of the sound-producing part of the speaker, except by circumstance of being attached to the cone. This is part of the reason micing the cap cuts low end.

Boingo, yeah, your'e right; technically I should not have used the word "gap" for the ring itself. Thanks for that correction.

I'm not sure just what that ring is actually called, but you're right, it is approximately where the voice coil actually physically pushes the cone, and that's how I think of it. And you are also 100% correct about the dustcap.

And Tom, *whew*, thanks. I'm not one to go around questioning your posts, you are one of the best on this board. I figured it was just a "mental typo" and was praying that was the case, and that my mind had not slipped into another dimension where cones were dome-shaped. If that were the case, my ice cream would be melting all over my keyboard right now.

G.

[masteringhouse]

Glen -

You have a good share of great input on the board as well.

Always question "authority"!