Hat bleed in snare

[ecktronic]

Anyone got any ways of getting rid of hi hat bleed into the snare mic?
I know i can position the mics certain ways, or raise the hats a bit. But still seem to get spill.
I also thought about disabeling the hats while recording the drums and then recording the hats seperately. Could be a bit too tricky though for the drummer. Sounds like Deftones might have done this technique though as the hats sound very present and panned, so cant really hear any bleed into OHs and snare etc.

[zed32]

i'm thinking it's pretty much impossible to completely get rid of hi-hat bleed in the snare mic. my experience with micing drums is very limited though, so i guess i'm not much of a help haha.
maybe try micing the snare from the bottom? i wish i coulda been in the studio with Deftones while they were recording White Pony. the whole album just has an amazing sound to it, especially the drums! anyway i wish i could be of more help but im drunk.

[ecktronic]

Cheers man, yeah White pony sounds real good. Not enough bass in my opinion and they killed it at mastering also. Its too squashed. The wave looks like a rectangle!!

[zed32]

yeah i know, i remember looking at the wave form for the song Elite, haha wow! that's crazy how the cut all the peaks that way. it doesnt even look like a wave its just a solid block of sound. and thats not always such a bad thing when it comes to songs like that...

[ecktronic]

But you can always just turn up your amp rather than have the wave squashed too death and back and then resurected back to life. It sounds a little distorted, and i wonder how much they paid the engineers to get the level that loud?? Waste of money? could be.

[Track Rat]

You can't get rid of the hat bleed as you're finding out. It's a function of a few things. I find that hats for playing out vs thinner hats for recording will sound hard and harsh, especially if you try to EQ some snap into the snare. Also, and probably most importantly, the way a particular player hits. Most drummers I've recorded don't have a good grasp on their playing dynamics, that is they don't gage how hard they're hitting the hats in relation to the other individual drums. Most guys just slam away. That being said, I tend to use hypercardiod mics for snare and TRY to get the hats in the null point of the mics pick up pattern. I like an MD-441 on snare if the drummer is a slammer. Also a C-1000 with the adapter that narrows its pattern can work, all depending on what I'm hearing play back.

[ecktronic]

Right, ive just been using an SM57 at the top and bottom. Not too sure about using a C1000 though for snare.

[Track Rat]

You'd be surprised. They're actually a decent snare mic. I don't like them on much else besides snare/tom mics and in front of an amp.

[ecktronic]

I would expect alot of bleed though with using a condensor mic on a snare.

[RAMI]

Try draping a piece of material (I use a baseball cap) off the snare mic, falling on the high hat side. Don't put it over the mic, so it doesn't muffle the sound, just let it fall to the side. Biut really, a good drummer should be hitting his snare hard enough that it doesn't become a big problem.

[grn]

why separate it? why don't you just get it to sound good in the first place through the OHs... that's where most of the sound should come from... then you won't have to mess with the other drums you've mic'd because it already sounds good... you can just add a hint of EQ to other drums you've recorded and it should sound great.

[Track Rat]

Originally Posted by grn

why separate it? why don't you just get it to sound good in the first place through the OHs... that's where most of the sound should come from... then you won't have to mess with the other drums you've mic'd because it already sounds good... you can just add a hint of EQ to other drums you've recorded and it should sound great.

I agree with one caveat, most drummers don't exercise the control to balance their over all sound.

[jonnyc]

I've seen c1000's used in recording for both hi's and the snare and honestly it sounded really good, way better than I expected. I never thought much of the c1000 until I saw my buddy recording with them. He claims they are the best condensers for snares, he's a bit of a dumbass though. I just mic my snare and let the hi bleed thru all it wants, never had complaints from clients.

[FALKEN]

all you have to do is point the mic away from it. adding in a bottom mic might improve things also.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by grn

why separate it? why don't you just get it to sound good in the first place through the OHs... that's where most of the sound should come from... then you won't have to mess with the other drums you've mic'd because it already sounds good... you can just add a hint of EQ to other drums you've recorded and it should sound great.

I must disagree with that statement. Personally I will capture the full kit with the OHs but concentrate on getting the snare and cymbals sounding real good through the OHs. I will mostly use the close mics to capture the sound of each drum and then use the OHs as a means of beefing up the snare by alinging it up exactly with the close miced snare track(s). This produces a more in your face drum sound. Might not be as natural a sound but thats the way i like the drums to sound. Right up in yer face. Yahhh.
Just my personal preference though. As all arts are, they are subjective.

[xfinsterx]

It takes a lot longer but as long as the drummer is playing to a click you can have all the cymbals overbubbed seperatly.

I just made double thick cardboard rounds and turned them into cymbals.
Then during cymbal over dubs, i used rubber practice pads as the drums.

Pretty elaborate, and i hate when people request it.
But it does give you awesome control.

[ecktronic]

Good idea Finster. I dont use a click track when recording my band though, but i could give it a try with just the hi-hat being disabled. Most of our songs dont work at the same robotic tempo the whole way through so we dont bother with a click track.

[giraffe]

my old drummer (sadly, he got a life, and by that i mean a kid and wife)
was a perfect example of a good (dynamically) drummer

if you soloed up the over-heads, the kit mix was always perfect (cept maby lacking a little ass in the kick)

barely needed a snare mic (used it mostly to attach reverb to)

i miss ted.

[Cloneboy Studio]

If you are miking "live" on the drum kit you are not going to get rid of hat/cymbal bleed in the snare mics (or tom mics for that matter). Hence the reason a lot of people use triggers/sound replacer or gates on snares--to control the hats.

I don't really care for the sound of close mics much anyways, unless it's metal or similar music dynamics.

You can always do, if you have tons of time and pre-prod, the "record drums first then record high hat and cymbals as an overdub" but that's too much work for most drummers it seems. Or too much studio time. It can also sound a bit artificial to break up your drums like that (can anyone say "Pyromania?" where *EACH* drum was recorded seperately to a drum machine click track--the fills sound stiff as hell).

For the most part it can occasionally be frustrating with the current batch of bash-the-cymbals-and-high-hat-but-tickle-the-snare-and-toms crop of young drummers, but there are work arounds.

If you deal with it constantly you will probably get Sound Replacer like I did. Just make a 3 part velocity sensitive sample of the naked snare and replace it. That way the drummer at least can feel that they aren't "cheating" with sample replacing. Or just don't tell them.

For the most part I will usually set a gate to control the bleed. That's good enough for me. Just song long as the snare doesn't sound gated.

[ecktronic]

I tried a gate on the snare track but it doesnt work for this style of drumming since he uses alot of intricate snare playing, so when the gate opens it stays open until a snare roll or introcate part is finished, thus the hat bleed being present only at snare rolls etc which sounds like crap.
I was thinking of recording the hats seperately, but i think i will just grin and bare the bleed, but spend more time on mic placement and maybe even try using a cloth drape to seperate the snare mic, depends if it sounds good or not though.
Cheers all.

[AGCurry]

I'm in the overheads-only camp. But then, I'm also all for natural foods.

Yes, you won't ever eliminate bleed from the high hats. That's why it's important to use a snare mic which has great off-axis response.

[xstatic]

If you are doing rock drums, overhead only techniques will rarely give you the snare and tom sound you need. Hi hat bleed is a tough one. I switched from sm57's to beta 57a's a while ago and it helps a little. The biggest thing is getting the drummer to back off his hats a bit or to get on the snare a little more. In general i rarely even use the hi hat mic in the mix. The overheads usually do a pretty good job getting the hat (depending on the drummers cymbal set up and how many he/she has). The snare top also lets in a little. Adding a bottom snare mic has really helped the hi hat bleed out as well. Other than that, you may want to try and build a nice little shiled that attaches to your stand and physically shields out some of the hi hats from the snare mic. Gates in my opinion actually make this problem worse. I would prefer to have a song where the hi hats were always a little too loud than where they change dramatically every time the snare gate opens.

[Cloneboy Studio]

Originally Posted by xstatic

If you are doing rock drums, overhead only techniques will rarely give you the snare and tom sound you need.

I understand you said "rarely" but... John Bonham only needed overheads, kick and snare. It can be done. Although I wouldn't do any metal bands with only overheads/kick/snare mics.

Originally Posted by xstatic

Hi hat bleed is a tough one.

Yeah it can be disastrous if the drummer doesn't "behave."

Originally Posted by xstatic

Gates in my opinion actually make this problem worse. I would prefer to have a song where the hi hats were always a little too loud than where they change dramatically every time the snare gate opens.

Depends how you set the gate. If I have to gate a snare it will be to capture the attack of the snare and not the decay as much, so the blurt of cymbal/hat bleed almost becomes part of the snare sound.

If the gate is making the hats sound funny it's not set right.

Admittedly, gates aren't my favorite way of handling this phenom--sound replacer is.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Cloneboy Studio

Depends how you set the gate. If I have to gate a snare it will be to capture the attack of the snare and not the decay as much, so the blurt of cymbal/hat bleed almost becomes part of the snare sound.

If the gate is making the hats sound funny it's not set right.

By capture the attack do you mean that there is no bleed before the snares attack because the gate is closed, instead of their being bleed then the snare being sounded. The contrast from no sound (gated) to snare makes it seem more attacky than without a gate?
Or are you using the gates opening speed to produce attack?

I aint sure thats a good idea using the bleed as part of the snare sound man. It sounds weird having an increase in hi-hat ( from bleed) volume.

[SilentSound]

I have a few suggestions to offer, all of which I've used on various sessions/mix sessions to full success.

1. Lighter hats(very optional)
2. mic top and bottom so you don't have to add so much top eq
-get the most balanced and accurate OH sound you can
-make sure your stereo field matches the L-R alignment of hh and snare
3. either in your daw or your console, compress and limit the life out of either a track copy or an aux send of the snare then gate it severely so all that's left is a tick which you can then add to the original snare hit making it very present and full of attack, and, as I find, only needing deductive eq and a low place in the mix-as J.J. Puig would call it, implied power.
4. lightly and musically gate the original snare track(if you feel you want more seperation).
5. eq the body of the snare out of the HH tracks and eq a little top in higher than you would on snare and at a more narrow bandwith..only a little mind you.

I wish there were an example available of the band whos drummer was so undynamic that I had to do all these steps on about 75% of the songs. Good luck!

Matt