RMS vs. Peak, +4dbu vs. -10dbv

[davefromfade]

I am trying to get my masters as loud as possible. I have read a lot about
dynamics vs. overall volume and the compromise between the two. What I am
most interested in is making my music as loud as the commercial CD's I buy.
Nothing seems to do it. What compressions setting should I be using (in
general) during mastering? I am also limiting as a final stage in the
process, and that gets me to 0db peak, but only around -9db RMS. Peak really
means nothing except digital clipping (obviously) because RMS is what we
hear. So the question really is, how do we raise the RMS level without
sending the overall mix into complete distortion hell?

Also, I've read a great deal about +4dbu and -10dbv. My console supports
both as well as my M-Audio Delta 44 soundcard. Everything I've read says you
want to be using +4 since this has more headroom and less sensitivity (more
room to play with the dynamics) than -10. However, when I set my soundcard
to +4 output and my mixer as +4 on the input from the soundcard output and
PFL the channel, my mixer shows a continuous clip light which registers over
+10dbu. So, can someone explain the difference between the two and how I
achieve a +4 environment with the equipment I have. I think there is just
something that I am missing here. Thanks!

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by davefromfade

I am also limiting as a final stage in the
process, and that gets me to 0db peak, but only around -9db RMS.

Please stop! Even -11dB RMS is obnoxious.

[FALKEN]

green day is like -6 and their older stuff sounds pretty good. system of a down is like -4 and they sound great to me. those guys pretty much stand out from the crowd though. if you load in the cds you are trying to target, I think you will find most are between -12 to -16. usually each song on the cd is slightly different (depending on the arrangement). I think you're already there.

[FALKEN]

what you may be missing is that, from what i have heard on this board, -12 dB digital = 0 analog. I don't remember logarithms but I think that means that 0 digital = +12 analog, which would explain why you are constantly clipping. you would need to bring the output on the soundcard down -12 in order to monitor properly.

[Massive Master]

Originally Posted by davefromfade

What I am most interested in is making my music as loud as the commercial CD's I buy. (snip) I think there is just something that I am missing here.

Do you have any idea what goes into getting a commercial CD to hold together at those insane volumes? The pre-production? The arrangement? The gear selection? The mastering budget alone would pay for the entire gear list in most home studios.

If you're having trouble getting it there, it's most likely the recording. Everything has to fall into place from the start - You can't just take any old recording and expect it to hold up under that kind of abuse...

Recordings that "want" to be loud - That is, that have the potential to be loud, are fairly easy to handle - given an experienced engineer with the right gear and monitoring.

I don't mean to be a "nay-sayer" but come on... Let's be realistic...

"What compression settings should I use during mastering?"

Sorry, it's been a long day of discussions like this...

[ecktronic]

System of a down RMS average= -4dB????!!!!!
I really find that hard to beleive. But ill give you the benifit of the doubt.
I do know that Queens of the stonage got to -6dB!

On my work i go to around -10dB which still is maybe a bit much.

[mixandmaster]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

The arrangement?

The single most overlooked part of home "mastering".

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by mixandmaster

The single most overlooked part of home "mastering".

That's right. I have one homerec that's probably -6dB. I swear I only used compression on the bass and maybe a touch on kick. It has two industrial guitar parts and a distorted vocal, which pretty much does the trick.

The drums sound like crap though. I didn't know how to record drums back then.

As for Green Day, yeah I believe American Idiot is -6, but I'd be surprised if Dookie was. AI sounds awful.

[FALKEN]

well my advice to the question poster is to load it in and find out.

[Cloneboy Studio]

Originally Posted by davefromfade

I am trying to get my masters as loud as possible. I have read a lot about dynamics vs. overall volume and the compromise between the two. What I am most interested in is making my music as loud as the commercial CD's I buy. Nothing seems to do it.

If you're talking *purely* volume levels....

Step 1.) Purchase Sony Oxford Inflator or Waves L1/L2/L3 Limiter.

Step 2.) Set to stun or kill.

Done.

Takes all of 5 seconds with the right tools.

Of course I'm strictly speaking about volume. Quality *OF* that volume may differ depending on the GI/GO theorem.

[Matheon]

my question is WHY!!!!!!!??!??!?

i thought i was a limiter freak by running some of my stuff up to -11 rms!

face the facts..
neither you or your friends will be able to tell if your stuff is -9 rms or -11 rms.

i doubt you could pick out a -13 rms.

except for the fact that the "quieter" ones will sound better because they will contain some form of an actual dynamic range.
this insanely high RMS stuff is just garbage.. its just a number that people read or see somewhere and go "man that is what the pros do so i must do it"

but IT WILL NOT IN ANY WAY MAKE YOUR MASTERS BETTER

some people want to spend hours upon hours perfecting a mix only to turn it into crap in the last 20 seconds of working on it by trying to achieve some magical RMS number for god knows what.

don't kill it.
if its not loud enough, press the volume up button on the stereo.

if you have a client talking about "pros get -2 RMS"... yell at them and tell them about artistic integrity and dynamics and junk like that. they may respect you for the way you are sticking it to the man by maintaining the integrity of their sound.

the music industry today doesn't do everything right. limp bizkit is proof of that.

- sorry.. everybody has to throw a fit about this now and again.. i think its my turn

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Why does youth tend to copy what everybody else is doing in an effort to be different?

Before long, some "big name" will catch on to the fact that in a world where every song is squeezed into a solid square wave, a "quieter" song with real dynamics will actually stand out like a snowball in a coal bin, and the pendulum will begin it's swing back the other way.

In the meantime, let's pride ourselves at being ahead of the curve.

G.

[Cloneboy Studio]

Screw dynamics!

-0.01 db RMS sounds like a good place to be...

ROFL.

[giraffe]

how did you brake the -0.03rms barrier???
seems to be a stopping block to me.

[Mista Dex]

How can I measure what my RMS is??

[Massive Master]

With a meter that reads RMS levels.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Mista Dex

How can I measure what my RMS is??

If you have wavelab then you can go to the global analysis and analyse the loudest section in your song. The larger your selection fo the loudest consistentlt loud part will give you a more accurate reading for your songs largest RMS average.
The reason I do it this way is because I know my mixes can stand limiting of up to -10dB RMS average at the most usually. I do still listen to the song after limiting to make sure it aint loosing too much quality.

[Downside Studio]

To get back to the equipment question.

You probably have your soundcart connected to the line inputs of the console. Those are on -10 dbu. The mic inputs are at +4. Good change your soundcard is equipt with individual stereo outputjacks. Those are not for stereo, but for a balanced signal (versus line which is unbalanced). If so, you can make the connetion with one stereo jack and an xlr on the ends of a cable.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by Massive Master

Do you have any idea what goes into getting a commercial CD to hold together at those insane volumes? The pre-production? The arrangement? The gear selection? The mastering budget alone would pay for the entire gear list in most home studios.

If you're having trouble getting it there, it's most likely the recording. Everything has to fall into place from the start - You can't just take any old recording and expect it to hold up under that kind of abuse...

Recordings that "want" to be loud - That is, that have the potential to be loud, are fairly easy to handle - given an experienced engineer with the right gear and monitoring.

I have to come to realize that this is almost 100% true. the mix will determine how loud you can limit it before it falls apart. but I still don't want to subscribe to the viewpoint that it takes an expensive budget. there has got to be a way to do it reasonably.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

I have to come to realize that this is almost 100% true. the mix will determine how loud you can limit it before it falls apart. but I still don't want to subscribe to the viewpoint that it takes an expensive budget. there has got to be a way to do it reasonably.

The style of music has a lot to do with this as well. You will never get a solo classical guitar to -9db rms, but a lot of death metal is almost that loud before mastering. If the music calls for it, you can set out to have a loud mix and you won't need any really expensive tools. If you have a song with a lot of 'air' or is sparsely arranged, you will need something really expensive to make it loud without destroying it. The farther away you are from your goal sound, the more expensive the equipment is that will fix it.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by Farview

The style of music has a lot to do with this as well. You will never get a solo classical guitar to -9db rms, but a lot of death metal is almost that loud before mastering. If the music calls for it, you can set out to have a loud mix and you won't need any really expensive tools. If you have a song with a lot of 'air' or is sparsely arranged, you will need something really expensive to make it loud without destroying it. The farther away you are from your goal sound, the more expensive the equipment is that will fix it.

I could buy that. It also doesn't happen overnight...learning to mix that way takes tiime...i'm still getting better. it seems reasonable that one day those crappy sounding plugin limiters will sound pretty damn good because my mixes are better.

[Farview]

Originally Posted by FALKEN

it seems reasonable that one day those crappy sounding plugin limiters will sound pretty damn good because my mixes are better.

Because your mixes are better and you won't need to have the limiters set on stun to get what you want.

[FALKEN]

Originally Posted by Farview

Because your mixes are better and you won't need to have the limiters set on stun to get what you want.

nah, I don't think they'll ever be that good. heh. we'll see.