"Vocals should not rattle the woofer." True or False?

[scarboro78]

Hey Guys,

I was wondering what everyone's take on that statement is. For the most part I've been trying to mix my vocals where they won't rattle the speakers much at all, but I find it nearly impossible to eliminate some sort of slight speaker rattle altogether without the vocals beginning to sound unnatural. I do notice that the less the speaker is moved by the vocals the better they tend to sound however.. especially in big systems (like at a club for instance). Any opinions?

Thanks.

[Halion]

What do you actually mean by rattling the woofer? If I can hear the woofer moving, something is wrong, no matter what. There's either some kind of vibration beeing transfered from the monitor to what it's standing on, or there's something broken. In my opinion, if you're speaker can't handle what your giving it, your probably driving it waaaaay too hard. Turn that shit down.

[scarboro78]

Originally Posted by Halion

What do you actually mean by rattling the woofer? If I can hear the woofer moving, something is wrong, no matter what. There's either some kind of vibration beeing transfered from the monitor to what it's standing on, or there's something broken. In my opinion, if you're speaker can't handle what your giving it, your probably driving it waaaaay too hard. Turn that shit down.

Hi Halion,

I'm not talking about distortion.. I'm talking about the vocals themselves, when solo'd, they do not move the cone at all.. actually that's the question, should they? At all?

[chessrock]

If your vocals are so powerful they make your speakers rattle ... then that's actually pretty cool.

I wouldn't change anything.

[scarboro78]

Originally Posted by chessrock

If your vocals are so powerful they make your speakers rattle ... then that's actually pretty cool.

I wouldn't change anything.

lol. geezus I knew I should've worded myself better. Ok what I meant is this.. (hopefully).
I've been told by a couple of engineers that vocals should not move the woofer, meaning that any of the lows in the vocals that move the woofers should be cut.

My question is... is this a valid rule of thumb? Like I said I've been following this to a point, but it seems impossible to not "move" or "rattle" the woofer itself(not the entire speaker), without making the vocals sound unnatural. What are your thoughts?

(I hope that made more sense)

[scrubs]

Originally Posted by scarboro78

Hi Halion,

I'm not talking about distortion.. I'm talking about the vocals themselves, when solo'd, they do not move the cone at all.. actually that's the question, should they? At all?

I've never really noticed, but I would say that, unless you're Barry White, if you're moving the cone much, you have too much bass. Pop vocals tend to have very little bass.

A couple of things:

1. Always use a pop filter. Always. Plosives are not only bad for your mic, but are not good on speakers either. In general, the pop filter should be roughly halfway between the mic and your mouth (if you are 8 inches from the mic, put the pop filter at 4").

2. Angle the mic slightly. Place the diaphragm at the level of the nose and angle it slightly down toward the mouth. That way, you're not singing directly into the capsule.

3. Find the right distance for your voice/mic/room - Too close with give you a nice, intimate sound, but the proximity effect may be too much.

4. Use a low-cut EQ. If your mic or pre has a low cut/rolloff, try it. Sometimes it sounds worse, sometimes not. If it sounds worse with the low cut, go ahead and record the unaffected signal and use a software parametric EQ to get rid of bass. Boominess is going to occur from about 80-120Hz, so I generally set my low cut to begin at 80Hz and move it up until it sounds unnatural, then back down. It would not be unusual to apply a low cut to a vocal at 100-150Hz (and I'm a bass/baritone).

[kylen]

Cone Watchers...cool - I don't know how to do this myself so I'm just listening...for the woofer not to move there must be some woofer size, amount of roll-off (hpf), and certain dbSPL monitoring levels we're talking about - obviously...?

[scarboro78]

Originally Posted by scrubs

I've never really noticed, but I would say that, unless you're Barry White, if you're moving the cone much, you have too much bass. Pop vocals tend to have very little bass.

A couple of things:

1. Always use a pop filter. Always. Plosives are not only bad for your mic, but are not good on speakers either. In general, the pop filter should be roughly halfway between the mic and your mouth (if you are 8 inches from the mic, put the pop filter at 4").

2. Angle the mic slightly. Place the diaphragm at the level of the nose and angle it slightly down toward the mouth. That way, you're not singing directly into the capsule.

3. Find the right distance for your voice/mic/room - Too close with give you a nice, intimate sound, but the proximity effect may be too much.

4. Use a low-cut EQ. If your mic or pre has a low cut/rolloff, try it. Sometimes it sounds worse, sometimes not. If it sounds worse with the low cut, go ahead and record the unaffected signal and use a software parametric EQ to get rid of bass. Boominess is going to occur from about 80-120Hz, so I generally set my low cut to begin at 80Hz and move it up until it sounds unnatural, then back down. It would not be unusual to apply a low cut to a vocal at 100-150Hz (and I'm a bass/baritone).

Ahhhh... he understands! lol.. Thanks man. Actually my tracking follows most if not all of what you mentioned. I don't let people stand close to the mic, I always use a popper stopper, etc. I use a low-cut of about 80hz on my pre, but even then i get a little rattle, I tend to do another low cut on the EQ while mixing up by the 110-120'ish area.. but that's where it starts getting unnatural sounding (120-130).

So then this rule of thumb is valid afterall I guess huh. Pretty interesting. Only other question I guess has to do with Volume while mixing. What's a good volume to judge this vocal to woofer effect phenomenon, because obviously you're gonna get more woofer movement at higher volumes.. right?

[scarboro78]

Originally Posted by kylen

Cone Watchers...cool - I don't know how to do this myself so I'm just listening...for the woofer not to move there must be some woofer size, amount of roll-off (hpf), and certain dbSPL monitoring levels we're talking about - obviously...?

Yeah... what you said.. lol. But that's my question, about the dbSPL.. what's a good volume to mix with?

[scrubs]

Pick up an inexpensive SPL meter (Radio Shack sells em for about $50). From your listening position, the average volume should be about 80-85dB. That's a comfortable level, neither too loud or soft. Obviously, a soloed track is going to be quieter than the full mix.

[chessrock]

Originally Posted by scarboro78

I've been told by a couple of engineers that vocals should not move the woofer, meaning that any of the lows in the vocals that move the woofers should be cut.

I see.

Originally Posted by Scrubs

1. Always use a pop filter. Always. Plosives are not only bad for your mic, but are not good on speakers either. In general, the pop filter should be roughly halfway between the mic and your mouth (if you are 8 inches from the mic, put the pop filter at 4").

4. Use a low-cut EQ.

Scrubs answers it pretty well. You're probably just getting some popping. Best way to tame this is to do a low-cut at around 80 hz or so. If there are still problems, then you can also try multi-band compression (set it up to tame transients below, say, 200 hz or so).

Don't worry so much about all this woofer movement. Just use your ears. This is not "School of mixing for the deaf."

.

[scarboro78]

Originally Posted by scrubs

Pick up an inexpensive SPL meter (Radio Shack sells em for about $50). From your listening position, the average volume should be about 80-85dB. That's a comfortable level, neither too loud or soft. Obviously, a soloed track is going to be quieter than the full mix.

Ahhh.. I see i see.. very good. Thanks for the info!

PS: Is $50 bucks the cheapest I can find!? (Damn Avalon has me broke.)

[scarboro78]

Originally Posted by chessrock

I see.

Scrubs answers it pretty well. You're probably just getting some popping. Best way to tame this is to do a low-cut at around 80 hz or so. If there are still problems, then you can also try multi-band compression (set it up to tame transients below, say, 200 hz or so).

Don't worry so much about all this woofer movement. Just use your ears. This is not "School of mixing for the deaf."

.

lol. Funny, I have a friend who engineers thats deaf in one ear.. I don't think he'd appreciate that comment. lol. Anyways, I do use and trust my ears, but I've found this to be a cool extra way to help in mixing vocals. I never thought about multi-band compressing though for low-end on vocals, I'll give that a try next time.

Thanks for your help!

[RhythmRmixd]

Maybe Barry White with a pair of 18's?

[scarboro78]

Originally Posted by RhythmRmixd

Maybe Barry White with a pair of 18's?

huh..

[RhythmRmixd]

Originally Posted by scarboro78

huh..

http://members.chello.nl/p.klein6/

Make sure your speakers are on. Much respect to the late Barry White.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by scarboro78

I've been told by a couple of engineers that vocals should not move the woofer, meaning that any of the lows in the vocals that move the woofers should be cut. My question is... is this a valid rule of thumb?

Any rule of thumb that has you judging your mix by LOOKING at your monitors instead of LISTENING to them is about as worthwhile as one that has you smelling them instead of listening to them.

G.

[noisedude]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Any rule of thumb that has you judging your mix by LOOKING at your monitors instead of LISTENING to them is about as worthwhile as one that has you smelling them instead of listening to them.

G.

You are getting the hang of this more and more with every post!!! The transition from prickly newbie to wisened old forum regular is suiting you very well.

You're absolutely right too, of course.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by noisedude

You are getting the hang of this more and more with every post!!! The transition from prickly newbie to wisened old forum regular is suiting you very well.

You're absolutely right too, of course.

I was hoping to be a prickly old forum regular. Once again I missed my target. At least I got the "old" part down pat.

Now if you'll excuse me, my monitors smell like a leg of lamb, and I have to EQ in some mint jelly...



G.

[fraserhutch]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Now if you'll excuse me, my monitors smell like a leg of lamb, and I have to EQ in some mint jelly...

Now THAT is a quote worthy of Walters!

[Dogman]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

I was hoping to be a prickly old forum regular. Once again I missed my target.

Now if you'll excuse me, my monitors smell like a leg of lamb...



G.

I'm on my way over. Beer or wine?

(sorry, couldn't resist. Carry on. Nothing to see here.)

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by fraserhutch

Now THAT is a quote worthy of Walters!

Oh man, now what'cha have to go and insult me like that for??? Even my gravy isn't creamy and milky smooth...

G.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Originally Posted by Dogman

I'm on my way over. Beer or wine?

(sorry, couldn't resist. Carry on. Nothing to see here.)

Nothing but Colonel Rippers to drink here (grain alchohol and rain water).

G.

Oh brother, I must be bored...time to get outside for a while...

[noisedude]

ROLMAO!!!

Next week - If my cake sounds muffled does that mean it's overcooked?

[DonaldChang]

Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen

Any rule of thumb that has you judging your mix by LOOKING at your monitors instead of LISTENING to them is about as worthwhile as one that has you smelling them instead of listening to them.

G.

SONNED!!!!!