Latency Expectations in Sonar 4 Producer?

[gvdv]

Hi,
Given a decent amount of RAM, and appropriately matched components and electronics (motherboard, Front Side Bus, hard drive cache etc.) is it realistic to expect virtually no latency issues in Sonar 4 PE when recording approximately 8 tracks simultaneously with 3 or 4 plug-ins (reverb, drum tracks etc.)?

I can't see any of my projects ever exceeding 20 tracks - and even then, only 12-13 would be intensively used; the rest would be a few 'sweetening' overdubs, a few seconds in length.

To give you a bit more detail, I'm thinking of going with a system with roughly the following specifications:
3 120 GB SATA hard drives (one for the WinXP, one for audio files, and one for editing video)
2 GB (Dual)RAM
Motherboard with at least 3.0 MHz witn an 800 Mhz Front Side Bus

I have yet to decide whether or not to go with an audio interface or (internal) PCI card, and whether or not an audio interface would be Firewire or USB 2.0 based.

GVDV

[AlChuck]

Yes, more than reasonable.

[Monkey Allen]

Watch out for usb/ firewire interface problems when using XP SP2. There are a mountain of conflicts reported on the net.

[gvdv]

Originally Posted by Monkey Allen

Watch out for usb/ firewire interface problems when using XP SP2. There are a mountain of conflicts reported on the net.

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies.

Monkey Allen, given the problems with firewire and Win XP SP2 that you talk about, does this suggest that an internal, PCI card, is the least problematic way to go?

Thanks,

GVDV

[Paul881]

Originally Posted by gvdv

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies.

Monkey Allen, given the problems with firewire and Win XP SP2 that you talk about, does this suggest that an internal, PCI card, is the least problematic way to go?

Thanks,

GVDV

Given the relative costs and the additional safety, i would go for an internal PCI card, even though its years may be numbered. Unless portability is a real issue (maybe you want to use a laptop to record on the move), I would go with a pCI card. I certainly wont be ditching mine anytime soon

[gvdv]

Originally Posted by Paul881

Given the relative costs and the additional safety, i would go for an internal PCI card, even though its years may be numbered. Unless portability is a real issue (maybe you want to use a laptop to record on the move), I would go with a pCI card. I certainly wont be ditching mine anytime soon

Thanks for this. And no, I gave up the idea of portability a long time ago, as it seems to involve too many compromises (quality, higher prices etc.).

GVDV

[Monkey Allen]

PCI is probably the safest I suppose. Apparently the firewire SP2 issues have been fixed with hotfixes. PCI - E is coming out, don't know what effect it will have on PCI soundcards...but I wouldn't think any problems

[warble]

I'm using a Firepod (firewire) with XP Pro/SP2 and have had zero problems. One of the issues with SP2/Firewire was a possible performance decrease with Firewire devices. Microsoft has a fix for this, although I didn't have the problem and didn't need the fix.

I used to use a PCI interface (Echo Gina) and hoped moving to Firewire wouldn't be a bad choice - well, it wasn't. A Firewire interface can certainly perform just as well as a PCI interface IMO. I'm able to record 8 tracks at a time through the Firepod without a hiccup, and have been playing back 20+ tracks with various plug-ins per track with zero problem. I'm sitting at about 6 ms latency in Sonar Prod. 4. I tend to gravitate towards the safe end when it comes to setting latency, but keeping it under 10 ms will usually provide for good results.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "don't go firewire". Just do a little research.

Good luck!

[gvdv]

Originally Posted by warble

I'm using a Firepod (firewire) with XP Pro/SP2 and have had zero problems. One of the issues with SP2/Firewire was a possible performance decrease with Firewire devices. Microsoft has a fix for this, although I didn't have the problem and didn't need the fix.

I used to use a PCI interface (Echo Gina) and hoped moving to Firewire wouldn't be a bad choice - well, it wasn't. A Firewire interface can certainly perform just as well as a PCI interface IMO. I'm able to record 8 tracks at a time through the Firepod without a hiccup, and have been playing back 20+ tracks with various plug-ins per track with zero problem. I'm sitting at about 6 ms latency in Sonar Prod. 4. I tend to gravitate towards the safe end when it comes to setting latency, but keeping it under 10 ms will usually provide for good results.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "don't go firewire". Just do a little research.

Good luck!

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies: I really appreciate them.

Warble, what kinds of affect does 6ms of latency have on things?

I've only recorded with a computer once or twice, in a very straightforward way (1 mic., 1 vocal, each with a little reverb), and so am largely unaware of the potential effects that latency may have. For example, is there a chance of it delaying the signal when overdubbing, so that what you think you've recorded 'in sync' actually plays back a fraction of a second out of sync..

I really am a neophyte here, so would be grateful for any help that you can offer.

Thanks,

GVDV

[Middleman]

This is all dependent on the sound card and the quality of the drivers. But, if you don't go off and pick up a Taiwanese special, you should be good to go.

[warble]

Originally Posted by gvdv

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies: I really appreciate them.

Warble, what kinds of affect does 6ms of latency have on things?

I've only recorded with a computer once or twice, in a very straightforward way (1 mic., 1 vocal, each with a little reverb), and so am largely unaware of the potential effects that latency may have. For example, is there a chance of it delaying the signal when overdubbing, so that what you think you've recorded 'in sync' actually plays back a fraction of a second out of sync..

I really am a neophyte here, so would be grateful for any help that you can offer.

Thanks,

GVDV

6ms doesn't affect things. I was up to 10ms on my old card (Gina24), and didn't notice anything. I like the Firepod because you can do monitoring right from the Firepod and get a decent mix of what's recorded already, and what's coming in on any of the 8 inputs. Zero latency. If I montior though my software though, the latency has undesirable effects when trying to track vocals - a "robotic" type of sound. You can certainly tell the latency this way and even at 4-6ms, it's always there. I guess some do it this way because you can apply a realtime effect - like reverb - can hear the reverb while you perform and record the track. I personally don't care about that - I always record dry vocals then apply whatever effects after the fact.

Hope this helps a little. You'll love the Firepod if you get one, and it's very easy to use.

[gvdv]

Hi Middleman and Firepod,
Thanks for the replies.

You each seem to have different experiences of the computer recording process.

Firepod, would you say that monitoring through software always adds this kind of latency effect, and Middleman, would you agree?

Conversely, does monitoring from the soundcard always give a more accurate reading of latency when tracking?

GVDV

[Middleman]

Software always has latency yes. Some sequencers provide latency compensation features for plug ins but trying to monitor what you are recording is always going to be sound delayed. If you keep it under 10ms as pointed out, its tolerable. If your soundcard can't get below this threshold you have another option.

You can get around all this by monitoring the incoming signals right back off the preamp you are using. Then you aren't depending on that same signal going into the box, getting processed and the coming back out. This eliminates latency problems all together. You just split the signal before it goes in the computer and bring one feed back into headphones or an amp, mixer, whatever and monitor this source along with prior tracks already recorded.

[warble]

Originally Posted by gvdv

Firepod, would you say that monitoring through software always adds this kind of latency effect, and Middleman, would you agree?

Yes.

Originally Posted by gvdv

Conversely, does monitoring from the soundcard always give a more accurate reading of latency when tracking?

Yes. This is the way I do it and it works great for me.

[AlChuck]

Conversely, does monitoring from the soundcard always give a more accurate reading of latency when tracking?

That question is ill-worded. What's a "reading of latency?" I think you must mean, "does monitoring from the soundcard always result in less latency than monitoring through the software?" The answers is yes, of course.

Something to remember is that there is always latency, even in analog curcuits. If it's brief enough, it's not detectable by human perception, or perhaps more accurately, is part of normal perception of all stimuli and so is not an issue. To illustrate, calculate how many milliseconds it takes (based on the speed of sound in air) for you to hear the drummer hit his snare when you're ten feet away from it...

[Paul881]

Originally Posted by gvdv

Hi,
Given a decent amount of RAM, and appropriately matched components and electronics (motherboard, Front Side Bus, hard drive cache etc.) is it realistic to expect virtually no latency issues in Sonar 4 PE when recording approximately 8 tracks simultaneously with 3 or 4 plug-ins (reverb, drum tracks etc.)?

I can't see any of my projects ever exceeding 20 tracks - and even then, only 12-13 would be intensively used; the rest would be a few 'sweetening' overdubs, a few seconds in length.

To give you a bit more detail, I'm thinking of going with a system with roughly the following specifications:
3 120 GB SATA hard drives (one for the WinXP, one for audio files, and one for editing video)
2 GB (Dual)RAM
Motherboard with at least 3.0 MHz witn an 800 Mhz Front Side Bus

I have yet to decide whether or not to go with an audio interface or (internal) PCI card, and whether or not an audio interface would be Firewire or USB 2.0 based.

GVDV

I have a project currently with 46tracks, 4 instances of Stylus RMX, 2 instances of Atmosphere, two instances of WAVES RVerb and have a cpu loading of about 30% and a latency of 8.7ms which is very acceptable and i am not experiencing any latency that is noticable from my keyboard.

[TravisK]

If i were you and you wanted real speed, throw two of the satas into a raid 0.

you'll get some real hard disk speed from that, though it's a little less reliable because if one fails, they both fail.

But that's when you'd use your non raid hard disk to hold CWB files!

[gvdv]

Travis,
Thanks for this suggestion.

How does one set up RAID?

GVDV

[gvdv]

Originally Posted by Paul881

I have a project currently with 46tracks, 4 instances of Stylus RMX, 2 instances of Atmosphere, two instances of WAVES RVerb and have a cpu loading of about 30% and a latency of 8.7ms which is very acceptable and i am not experiencing any latency that is noticable from my keyboard.

Paul,
What did you mean that you're not experiencing any latency that is noticable from the keyboard? Do you mean that you're playing a keyboard, either for analogue or MIDI, and you're not noticing latency when doing that?

GVDV

[Paul881]

Originally Posted by gvdv

Paul,
What did you mean that you're not experiencing any latency that is noticable from the keyboard? Do you mean that you're playing a keyboard, either for analogue or MIDI, and you're not noticing latency when doing that?

GVDV

I play an Edirol 361C controler k/b and using its USB connection, I have very little latency that is noticeable. So when I depress a key on the keyboard, there is only a very slight delay in hearing the sound. My system tells me I have a latency of 8.7mSec. I can go as low as 3.5ish but get drop outs so 8.7 is my compromise and it works for me