what key would this be?

[cstockdale]

A descending chord sequence:

Am - G - F - E

if the E was a minor, that would be in C, but the E is a major...how can you get three major chords in a row like that? It sounds good, but what friggin key is that?

[busyboy]

The key is A Minor. You get three major chords like that because you are using the "A" Harmonic Minor scale. The Harmonic Minor has a raised (#) 7th (in this case, "G") which is what gives you that E Major chord.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by cstockdale

so the key of Am has what chord sequence?

The same as C major, just rearranged:

Am Bdim (not aug) C Dm Em F G

or:

i iiº (dim) III iv v VI VII

with little letter for minor chords, big for major.

However, that yields a weak cadence:

v - i

because there is not a semitone going back to the tonic:

Em: E - G - B

to

Am : A - C - E

The only semitone is B to C; G - A is a whole tone.

So to make the cadence stronger:

E: E - G# - B

Now you have the pull of G# - A as well as B - C

This is called the harmonic minor scale, and it has the following chords:

Am - Bdim - Caug - Dm - E - F - G#dim

or

i - iiº - III+ (aug) - iv - V - VI - #viiº

[lpdeluxe]

Am-Dm-Em is the usual "three chord" sequence for Am, but you can also use C (the relative major of Am) F (ditto of Dm) and G (ditto of Em) . You can also throw in a chord based on the 9th (Bm) and its relative major, D major, and things get interesting.

For a thorough cycling through the possibilities connected with the Am-G-F-E, check out Del Shannon's "Runaway." It opens with the Am-G-F-E, then modulates to Amaj/F#m, then resolves to a Amaj-Dmaj-Emaj ending.

Another master of modulation was Hoyt Axton. "Evagelina" and "The Indian Song" are great examples. Then there's "Someone To Love" as recorded by Paul Butterfield, and the old blues standby, "Stormy Monday" as recorded by the Allman Brothers. These don't use the Am-G-F-E sequence, but they will illuminate some of the things going on.

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

Am-Dm-Em is the usual "three chord" sequence for Am, but you can also use C (the relative major of Am) F (ditto of Dm) and G (ditto of Em) . You can also throw in a chord based on the 9th (Bm) and its relative major, D major, and things get interesting.

For a thorough cycling through the possibilities connected with the Am-G-F-E, check out Del Shannon's "Runaway." It opens with the Am-G-F-E, then modulates to Amaj/F#m, then resolves to a Amaj-Dmaj-Emaj ending.

Another master of modulation was Hoyt Axton. "Evagelina" and "The Indian Song" are great examples. Then there's "Someone To Love" as recorded by Paul Butterfield, and the old blues standby, "Stormy Monday" as recorded by the Allman Brothers. These don't use the Am-G-F-E sequence, but they will illuminate some of the things going on.

It doesn't depend on anything. Mshilarious said it perfectly. If you're in Am, then Am-Dm-Em is i-iv-v. If you're in C, then those same chords will be vi-ii-iii. Why did you bring C-F-G into it?

And I would disagree that Am-Dm-Em is the usual chord sequence for Am. It's actually pretty rare to see Em in the key of Am. Even though it's part of the harmonized scale, as Mshilarious stated, Em is not a very strong "dominant" chord in Am. It's much more common to see an E major chord in the key of Am.

[Mark7]

It's the chord sequence to "Blank Generation"

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

For a thorough cycling through the possibilities connected with the Am-G-F-E, check out Del Shannon's "Runaway." It opens with the Am-G-F-E...

I was thinking "Walk Don't Run". Same thing.

[Kryptik]

I'd think of it as being in Am with accidentals on the E major chord. But that might just be me.

Notes of Am = A, E, C
Notes of G = G, B, D
Notes of F = F, A, C
Notes of E = E, B, G#

The scale you'd be playing on for the most part would be
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, G#,

I'd say the key is Am.

[snipeguy]

Originally Posted by Mark7

It's the chord sequence to "Blank Generation"

I once got drunk (just a little) with Richard Hell after opening for him. He was a great guy.

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by Kryptik

I'd think of it as being in Am with accidentals on the E major chord. But that might just be me.

Notes of Am = A, E, C
Notes of G = G, B, D
Notes of F = F, A, C
Notes of E = E, B, G#

The scale you'd be playing on for the most part would be
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, G#,

I'd say the key is Am.

Technically, the scale you'd be playing over the first three chords (Am, G, and F) would be the A natural minor scale (A-B-C-D-E-F-G). Over the E chord, you'd switch to the A harmonic minor scale (A-B-C-D-E-F-G#). Of course, this is just talking about the technically "correct" scales, but you'll find just as many exceptions to this rule as you will adherences.

Regardless, the key is definitely Am--there's no question about it. It's actually a very simple and EXTREMELY common chord sequence (to the point where I won't even consider using it because it's so "done").

[corban]

This is basically the most common rock progression in a minor key. I try to stay away from it cause it's so overdone. And yes mshilarious hit it, the seventh of the scale is commonly raised to make the dominant chord major, as in the harmonic minor scale.

edit: well, the famous beagle beat me to my musical snobbery

[lpdeluxe]

I didn't...the songwriters did.

[rory]

I'd say melodic minor, not harmonic minor. You have the G natural, and then the G# as the third in the E major chord. Melodic minors have major 6 and 7 on the way up the scale and minor 6 and 7 on the way down. This would account for both the E major and G major.

[acidrock]

It's actually a very simple and EXTREMELY common chord sequence (to the point where I won't even consider using it because it's so "done").

The challenge is to use it and make it seem "new".

Originally Posted by famous beagle

Of course, this is just talking about the technically "correct" scales, but you'll find just as many exceptions to this rule as you will adherences.

That's my theory on most music theory.

[corban]

Originally Posted by rory

I'd say melodic minor, not harmonic minor. You have the G natural, and then the G# as the third in the E major chord. Melodic minors have major 6 and 7 on the way up the scale and minor 6 and 7 on the way down. This would account for both the E major and G major.

But when you play a chord, are you playing up or down? You can't really apply the melodic scale to a chord progression like that. If we're going to get uber-technical, the whole thing is just based on the natural minor scale. That's why you can have the G and F chord, the key signature itself has no sharps or flats. The raised third in the dominant is simply an accidental to the key that happens to be used often. If we were notating that chord in music theory it would be V#3, to indicate that the third is raised from what it normally would be in that key, which is A natural minor, which has no sharps or flats.

[famous beagle]

I'd say melodic minor, not harmonic minor. You have the G natural, and then the G# as the third in the E major chord. Melodic minors have major 6 and 7 on the way up the scale and minor 6 and 7 on the way down. This would account for both the E major and G major.

Sorry, but this is absolutely incorrect. The A melodic minor scale is spelled A-B-C-D-E-F#-G#. It has nothing to do with G natural whatsoever. These four chords will not all fit into one scale (or atleast one agreed upon scale). You could say "just use an A natural minor scale with an added G#." But then you'd still have to steer clear of that G# note over the G chord (usually), so you'd basically end up alternating between natural minor and harmonic minor anyway. The E chord is the one that presents the soloing "problem," and there are several options for it, especially if you wanted to get jazzier. Other than A harmonic minor, you could also play F Melodic minor starting on E (E-F-G-G#-Bb-C-D). This would created an altered dominant sound.

If we were notating that chord in music theory it would be V#3, to indicate that the third is raised from what it normally would be in that key, which is A natural minor, which has no sharps or flats.

Actually, all you would need to do would be to use an uppercase Roman numeral (V). This would indicate that the chord was major instead of minor. No one's going to argue about this progression being "in the key of A minor." However, if you just solo with the A minor scale throughout the whole thing, it's going to usually sound a little sour over the E chord because of the G#.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by famous beagle

Sorry, but this is absolutely incorrect. The A melodic minor scale is spelled A-B-C-D-E-F#-G#.

I think he had a point as that is ascending, but descending reverts to natural minor. I think the error is in applying the melodic scale to a harmony. That's more of a '80s heavy metal music theory than standard classical theory.

The G# in harmonic minor is always written as an accidental, so I don't think it's necessary to justify the G major chord outside of the context of harmonic minor.

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by mshilarious

I think he had a point as that is ascending, but descending reverts to natural minor. I think the error is in applying the melodic scale to a harmony. That's more of a '80s heavy metal music theory than standard classical theory.

The G# in harmonic minor is always written as an accidental, so I don't think it's necessary to justify the G major chord outside of the context of harmonic minor.

No but he was saying that melodic minor would account for both the G and G#, and this just doesn't make any sense. Is he saying that you can only play DESCENDING lines on the first three chords and only ASCENDING lines on the E?

The notion of the ascending/descending melodic minor scale is pretty much not an issue when thinking in terms of soloing. It's pretty much only used when thinking about melody writing. Those two different notes (the raised 6th and 7th) require different harmonies, and if you look at classical examples of, say, Bach inventions or cantatas, you'll see that those two notes always receive different harmonies than what's present in a natural minor scale. So ... considering this, it's not practical to improvise with the "classical" ascending/descending form of the melodic minor, since the accompaniment would have to telepathically sense that the soloist is going to use the melodic minor and then change the harmony to suit it.

Therefore, when you talk about the melodic minor scale as a soloing (specifically improvisational) tool, it's pretty much strictly referring to the ascending form only.

Regarding the G major chord being outside the context of harmonic minor, I know what you mean. I wasn't saying that. I was talking specifically about the note G---not the chord G.

[Mark7]

Of course, the real reason for using an E instead of an E minor is that Am, G, F, Em just doesn't sound all that good.

[mshilarious]

Originally Posted by famous beagle

No but he was saying that melodic minor would account for both the G and G#, and this just doesn't make any sense. Is he saying that you can only play DESCENDING lines on the first three chords and only ASCENDING lines on the E?

Yeah, that's what I gathered.

[famous beagle]

Originally Posted by Mark7

Of course, the real reason for using an E instead of an E minor is that Am, G, F, Em just doesn't sound all that good.

Well, that's subjective. U2 made it sound really good in "Staring at the Sun."

[corban]

Originally Posted by famous beagle

Well, that's subjective. U2 made it sound really good in "Staring at the Sun."

Good call. Also, the real reason that it doesn't "sound good" is because of the lack of leading seventh to properly give the feeling of a tonal center at Am. The times that it works like that U2 song, is when the minor dominant gives the feeling of a key change, where the tonal center at Am is irrelevant.