800-1000 Church Budget

[219777]

I've got about 800-1000 to spend on recording equipment. My primary use is going to be rehearsal though we will use some of the equipment in recording performances. One of my tenors is a home recording buff and has additional equipment that we'll use in recording performances. All recordings will be live either a cappella or with accompaniment (organ or piano in most cases). In some of our festivals we have brass but that's about the extent of it. I'm thinking of going with a pair of "value" multi-pattern mikes and something in the Fostex VF series for multitrack. I'm not a big fan of directional mics in choral applications as my experience is it tends to isolate voices hence the need for a muti-pattern (B2 or the like). However, my friend brings up an important point in that for some of the performances we use larger forces for we may want to have something with more unbalanced inputs (i.e. his pair of NT2's in front and my pair and other mics for closeup application). I know I'm not going to get much for the budget constriction but just thought I'd throw it out to you all. Also not too concerned with software, cd-burning etc as I have Cool Edit/Audition and a CD burner in my computer at home so can burn CD's there if I need to. Also not adverse to Ebay and used products.....thinking that's where most of the gear will come from actually.

[billisa]

In the Fostex line I'd go with the VF160EX, a new one. I believe they can be had for $799. These are great machines and will allow recording on 8 tracks right out of the box (only two with phantom power for condensore mics). But you can always have external preamps with phantom feeding the other tracks.

Solid, stable, and you can do all mixdown/burn in the machine.

There is another newer machine from Fostex which has a built-in harddrive, but no burn capacity. I forget how many tracks you can record at once, but this option is cheaper, and maybe OK sice you can mix/burn on a PC.

Studio Projects B1 mics are perhaps the best bang for the buck you can get. Great on acoustic piano, great on many voices (some say not as much on high female voices).

[219777]

In your experience does having additional mixer in the signal add noise? Also, If I got the additional mixer or preamp can I send each channel of miked sound to a seperate track on the 160EX? In other words it would be great to have the flexibility of 6 mics for the sound but if it doesn't feed to seperate tracks to be mixed to 2 track later it kind of defeats the purpose. Sure you'll have the six different vantage points but won't be able to take down the brass in certain passages or tweak the EQ on the soprano section.

[rboyce_boston]

If you buy a Behringer ADA8000, you can do this ("...send each channel of miked sound to a seperate track on the 160E"). This is because the ADA8000 can send 8 channels via ADAT (over a Toslink Optical cable) to your VF-160ex (or VF-16). The ADA8000 can also provide phantom power to 8 mics, which might be an important requirement if you want to use multiple condenser mics to record a vocal group/choir. Remember, the VF-160ex (and VF-16) can only provide phantom power to 2 mics. The preamps on the ADA800 are pretty quiet (better than the preamps on the Fostex machines).

My recommendation, based on the fact that you don't need a machine with a built-in CD burner, is to buy a used VF-16 on eBay (probably for around $400). Ideally, you want a VF-16 that has already had the O/S updated to the latest version, and one that has an upgraded hard drive. If not, installing a new hard drive is pretty easy. Updating the O/S, however, is not so easy (it requires that you use a SCSI Zip drive, but that's a whole 'nother story).

Take the money you save and buy a Behringer ADA8000 preamp/analog-to-ADAT converter. That piece of equipment is the best money I've ever spent on upgrading my home studio.

Good luck,

ray

[219777]

Thanks for the input ray..........does anyone know if the VF16 effects are comparable to the EX?....and how they compare overall? I like the idea of going without the CDR to save money but want to make sure I'm not getting something that's already obsolete.....the ada8000 sounds like a good idea....also upping the ante to 1200-1500......

Also, the main goal of this whole thing is for me to have something to carry around during the week to diagnose issues I didn't hear in rehearsal (part singing, vowel/tone production, diction, etc.)...so maybe the cdr may turn out to not be such a bad idea......

Todd

[rboyce_boston]

If you update the O/S on the VF-16 to the latest version, my understanding is that the 2 machines (the VF-16 and the VF-160) will have (essentially) the exact same functionality. The only difference is that you would need to purchase an external SCSI Plextor CD Burner in order to burn audio CD's, backup programs, load programs, etc. with your VF-16, but the upgraded O/S will now support all those features.

I THINK the FX section (2 individual effects engines) is exactly the same on both machines, but maybe someone else can confirm that.

Used VF-16: 400 (est. - you can probably get one cheaper)
ADA8000: 200 (new at http://www.roaddogonline.com - best price I could find)
Total: 600

Optional Plextor SCSI CD Burner: $100 (used on ebay, est.)

I don't quite understand how you got to 1200-1500 - were you including mics in your total?

There's actually a VF-16/Plextor combo available on eBay right now.

Remember, the ADA8000 will also give you the ability to record 16 tracks simultaneously (using either the VF-16 or the VF-160). It totally rocks.

HTH,

ray

[219777]

I was including mics in the total. I think I'm going with the Studio Projects B3's. My ears are stuck on omnis. I worked in the recording lab during college and they just seemed to have the best response for recording ensembles. We used cardiods up front for some solos or small chamber works trios quartets and the like but for choirs, wind bands, and orchestra it was always the matched pair of Beyer Dynamics or Neumans. I made for a more homogenous sound without any one part sticking out. I may experiment later on with miking sections in performance (hence the need for the pre-amp) but for right now I think I'm going to stick with what I know and go with the omnis.....any thoughts?

[billisa]

Originally Posted by 219777

In your experience does having additional mixer in the signal add noise? Also, If I got the additional mixer or preamp can I send each channel of miked sound to a seperate track on the 160EX?

Yes, you can feed 6 separate tracks via external pres and still have 7 and 8 with their own phantom power and mics. Total = 8 mics at once.

External preamps won't add any noise if they're quiet. The M-Audio DMP3 is a quiet 2-channel preamp... Some preamps are hissy and would degrade the signal. The Studio Projects B1 is dead quiet, but it's only 1 channel. The Behringer ada8000 is an 8 channel device that will run in via the ADAT input of the VF160. With that method the VF160 will record up to 16 separate tracks at once. The ADA8000 may get a little noisy if the gain is turned way up on the input, but you shouldn't have to do that.

[billisa]

By the way, there's a new Fostex recorder: Fostex MR8HD 8-Track Hard Disk Recorder.

Look it up at Zzounds, or elsewhere. Not available till the end of June. It's $399., with a 40gig HardDrive, and an easy interface to a PC where major editing/burning could be done.

Records 4 tracks at once (don't know if that's enough for you). Just another option.

[219777]

I saw the MR8HD out there. It looked tempting but I like the idea of having 16 track simultaneous.....I think for expandability purposes I'm going to go with the VF160. When you talk about upgrading the hard drive is it for noise purposes or disk space....my rehearsals are 1 hour long so 2 tracks should fit on the stock 5 gig for now. Also, how complicated is the OS upgrade?.....my pastor has a zip drive if need be.

[rboyce_boston]

I replaced the hard drive specifically to have additional space (40 gig vs the 5 gig standard drive). Some people DO complain about the noisy hard drives that were shipped with the VF-16, and I would agree that my new hard drive (Western Digital) is much quieter than the original drive.

As far as the O/S upgrade for the VF-16...you will need a SCSI Zip drive to load the new software onto your VF-16. And unless you have a SCSI card for your PC, you will need to buy a 2nd Zip drive (Parallel port or USB) in order to load the software from your PC onto a Zip disk. And you have to make sure the zip disk is formatted FAT (FAT16) in order for it to be recognized by the VF-16. You can probably do a search on this forum or at www.vf-16.com to find some more detailed posts regarding this process.

FYI...upgrading the O/S on the VF-160 is a much simpler process, since you can just burn a CD-R with the necessary software update and the load it onto your VF-160 via the built-in CD Drive.

Good luck,

ray

[billisa]

Originally Posted by 219777

I think for expandability purposes I'm going to go with the VF160. When you talk about upgrading the hard drive is it for noise purposes or disk space....my rehearsals are 1 hour long so 2 tracks should fit on the stock 5 gig for now.

Are you going with a new VF160? If so, it'll come with a 40gig HardDrive and built-in CDRW. You won't need to upgrade the OS.

Even older VF160's came with 30gig HardDrives. Only the much older VF16's had a 5gig unit.

The VF160's are very quiet and probably the only reason you'd upgrade the drive is because you really need the extra space, or for some reason the drive broke down.

I'd go with a new VF160 if it's possible. Great buy at $799.

[219777]

Well I did it. Bought the VF160 and a pair of Behringer B2's (i know i know......) I was a click away from the Studio Projects C3 and read a couple of more reviews and decided that all chinease made LDC's in the $150-300 are created equal. I could prove to be wrong as I've heard the B2's top end is a little shrill but I feel I could pocket the $200 for the ADA8000 down the road. We'll see. I think for the purpose it'll be more than sufficient.

[billisa]

Originally Posted by 219777

Well I did it. Bought the VF160 and a pair of Behringer B2's (i know i know......) I was a click away from the Studio Projects C3 and read a couple of more reviews and decided that all chinease made LDC's in the $150-300 are created equal.

Actually, they're not. The Studio Projects B1's at $99.00 are very, very quiet, relatively neutral, and backed by phenomenal customer support.

[219777]

Yeah....but I needed a multi-pattern. These will be used mainly for ambient overhead positioning.

[treymonfauntre]

i got a vf16 off ebay for $300. i have no need for effects since all i'm using it for is recording and all my mixing will be done on the computer. i got an 8 channel soundcraft mixer for about $150 and an adat capable soundcard for about $150. all used, all works perfectly. that would have left you $400 to spend on mics.

[billisa]

Originally Posted by 219777

Yeah....but I needed a multi-pattern. These will be used mainly for ambient overhead positioning.

Why would you use a multi-pattern for overheads? BTW, the B1's (Studio Projects) are excellent as overheads...

[Paj]

If you're looking at the SP-B3, take a look at the CAD M179.

If you're looking at the B1, also take a look at the Octava MK319.

I have all of these mics---each one is a winner. IMHO, the CAD M179 is the most versatile mic under $200 (and it's made in the USA).

If you do decide to go with SP mics, get them "dot matched." The warranty card has a colored dot affixed to it. Dots of the same color mean the output levels for the mics fall in a close range.

Are you aware that LDC multipattern dual-diaphragm mics are a different version of "omni" than the "truer" SDC sngle diphragm mics?


Good luck,
Paj
8^)

[219777]

Originally Posted by billisa

Why would you use a multi-pattern for overheads? BTW, the B1's (Studio Projects) are excellent as overheads...

For a couple of reasons. I've found that in miking choirs the cardioids tend to be too directional and overbalance one section to another. I have 35 members in the choir now and the ensemble measures around 25 X 10. Also, while the rehearsal space isn't an ideal acoustic environment the space has a decent sound and I'd like to capture some of it. With cardioids it tends to be flat/dry with zero hall. To get a homogenous/ambient sound for rehearsal, I'll go with either a Figure 8 Blumlein or spaced omni setup. For performances in the sanctuary we may use a cardiod per section and a stereo pair for the brass with spaced omni's out in the sanctuary to pick up the ambience. Main reason for this is up front brass and organ behind will DEFINITELY overbalance the sound and we'll have to go back to mix choir to the front afterwords.