Condenser mics & Acoustic Guitars

[Monkey Allen]

Just wondering what people do to get a good acoustic sound with a condenser mic. I only just got a condenser mic and it really picks up everything. The sound is almost too clear in a way.

It doesn't help that my recording room/ bedroom has concrete floors...but still I'd be interested to know what you do to get nice sound.

thanks

[COOLCAT]

the gang here turned me on to a SDC, one of those SM81 looking mics...
like a small long tube. works great, best acoustic tracks i ever did in my HR.
MXL has cheapies that are great too 603's,991's etc... i kept the 991.

very directional, I point it at the ~22fret area. takes some of the "boomy" crap out of the track and of course alot of the room.

yeah, my first LDC..it was so noisy...then i realized it was picking up my upstairs attic AC fan noise!!

[Han]

Yesterday I was setting up a pair of floor monitors for the vocalist, a Neumann M149 in hyper cardiod on the monitors. I heard a bird singing on the monitors which I couldn't hear when I turned down the volume.

As for the acoustic guitar recording, a pair of decent SDC's in ORTF will make you very happy.

[Monkey Allen]

The MXL 603 seems to have gotten itself some pretty good raps. $260 odd in Australia.

[baekgaard]

Originally Posted by Monkey Allen

It doesn't help that my recording room/ bedroom has concrete floors...but still I'd be interested to know what you do to get nice sound.

Your room is probably a big part of the problem, but also working on placement relative to the guitar is important.

The 3 most common ways are as follows: 1) A single mic or an XY pair of mics around 12th fret. 2) One mic at 10th-12th fret and another at the bridge (at the other side of the soundhole). 3) On mic over your right shoulder (assuming you're a right hand player), possibly combined with another mic in front near the 12th fret. There are of course also others but they seem to be variations of the above (Mid-Side, ...).

1) will give you a "natural" sound, whereas 2) and 3) when done in stereo gives a wider-than-life perspective. 3) in mono can give you a natural sound as well.

Try moving the mic closer or further away. Try angling it a bit towards the string side or the sound hole. Move it up along the strings or the other way.

Some links to get you started:

http://www.humbuckermusic.com/acguitrectec.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Aug0...cacgtr0801.asp
http://www.audio-recording-center.co...ic-guitar.html

-- Per.

[XLR]

In my mic collection, all my inexpensive condensers tend to emphasize any high end harshness that exists in the guitar, player's style or room. They can work well though, if there isn't any upper mid edginess. Just for perspective, some higher end condensers like Schoeps (and especially ribbons like the Beyer M160) can be more forgiving in that aspect and still get all the detail w/clarity. My MXL 603, V67, B'er ECM8000, Rode NT2 are all good mic's but get jangly/edgy if the source has any roughness in the 2k-5kHz range.

As far as mic location, for steel str acoustic I think the neck/body joint is the general location that works well for most gtrs when you're close mic'ing (less than a couple of feet away)and it's considered somewhat of a standard starting point, as you'll hear in the thread. Gets a nice balance between lows and highs (and can make a mediocre instrument sound better than it really does). Adding a 2nd mic in XY at that spot gives added complexity to the sound without causing phase problems if you pan them together. Adding a 2nd close mic at the bridge and panning the mic's L/R give a wide sound and fills in the lower mids to my ear.

When you move the mic's a few feet away you get the whole sound of the gtr and how it interacts with the room, which can be a good thing or a bad thing. IME you've got to have a good sounding room (usually needs high ceiling, large floor space) and pretty good sounding instrument. If you've got a good room, moving the mic's a few feet back and using XY or ORTF config can get you a very open, you're-there-in-the-room sound. It can also can reduce the mic's pickup of any edginess that exists in the source, as that often dissipates with distance in a good room.

I’m assuming that it’s an acoustic steel string, not acoustic nylon. I record 30% steel str and 70% classical/flamenco gtr. Nylon strings can be pretty different for close mic’ing.

Tim

[astoebe]

condensers are going to pick up everything, that's why you need a quiet room. also, the room you are recording in sounds less than ideal. Do you have a closet anywhere with alot of clothes and such hanging up? Or maybe a room that isn't square and doesn't have hard surfaces? If not, try to make it quiet where you are and use effects afterwards to get the room sound you are after......

[tdukex]

Originally Posted by Han

As for the acoustic guitar recording, a pair of decent SDC's in ORTF will make you very happy.

That's my favorite for solo acoustic, 12" - 24" out depending on the sound I'm after.

[tdukex]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

In my mic collection, all my inexpensive condensers tend to emphasize any high end harshness that exists in the guitar, player's style or room. They can work well though, if there isn't any upper mid edginess. Just for perspective, some higher end condensers like Schoeps (and especially ribbons like the Beyer M160) can be more forgiving in that aspect and still get all the detail w/clarity. My MXL 603, V67, B'er ECM8000, Rode NT2 are all good mic's but get jangly/edgy if the source has any roughness in the 2k-5kHz range.

As far as mic location, for steel str acoustic I think the neck/body joint is the general location that works well for most gtrs when you're close mic'ing (less than a couple of feet away)and it's considered somewhat of a standard starting point, as you'll hear in the thread. Gets a nice balance between lows and highs (and can make a mediocre instrument sound better than it really does). Adding a 2nd mic in XY at that spot gives added complexity to the sound without causing phase problems if you pan them together. Adding a 2nd close mic at the bridge and panning the mic's L/R give a wide sound and fills in the lower mids to my ear.

When you move the mic's a few feet away you get the whole sound of the gtr and how it interacts with the room, which can be a good thing or a bad thing. IME you've got to have a good sounding room (usually needs high ceiling, large floor space) and pretty good sounding instrument. If you've got a good room, moving the mic's a few feet back and using XY or ORTF config can get you a very open, you're-there-in-the-room sound. It can also can reduce the mic's pickup of any edginess that exists in the source, as that often dissipates with distance in a good room.

I’m assuming that it’s an acoustic steel string, not acoustic nylon. I record 30% steel str and 70% classical/flamenco gtr. Nylon strings can be pretty different for close mic’ing.

Tim

Excellent post, Tim. I agree with everything you said (except I have no experience with the Shoeps and Beyer and probably never will).

[punkin]

Read everything posted here so far. It's all good. You're faced with a tough situation if the room isn't "there".

I have done some stuff in less than perfect facilities. Close mic in x/y with 603's (or other of your choice), then with a LDC, about 3 to 5 feet back to put some ambiance back into the picture. This way you can balance with the natural delay and reverb vs. the clean close mic'd sound.

If all you have is a LDC then you're going to continue to struggle (again if the room isn't working for you)...the closer you get the more you'll hear breathing noises and finger sounds. I have fits with the breathing sounds...why can't they learn to play without breating ( ). Turn down the gain on the mic pre, it's still the same but quieter. In this situation, I have also had "some" success by using a noise reduction application like the one in Adobe Audition 1.5. I would take room-noise sample on the LDC in it's final placmement only then apply carefully later but only to the third LDC track...not the final mix.

LDCs can be sweet but for quiet acoustic instruments...not if the room isn't up to par. If you can work outside...that might work.

Post us a simple clip and describe the setup. I feel your pain.

[Monkey Allen]

Originally Posted by astoebe

condensers are going to pick up everything, that's why you need a quiet room. also, the room you are recording in sounds less than ideal. Do you have a closet anywhere with alot of clothes and such hanging up? Or maybe a room that isn't square and doesn't have hard surfaces? If not, try to make it quiet where you are and use effects afterwards to get the room sound you are after......

No, I have nowhere really. The whole unit has concrete floors, low ceilings and square rooms. It's pretty bad! The whole place is kind of cold, if you know what I mean. I hope to move into a house soon. I would then have spare rooms that I can use to record in.

Thanks for all the informative replies...really good stuff

[TravisK]

I generally use the following method with my mics and I have had fantastic results.

I have two samson co2 condensors and an M-Audio Luna.

I place the Luna directly in front of the players hand, which is 90% of the time in between the sound hole and the bottom of the neck...somewhere about 6-8 inches away to capture the whole of the instrument. Then the co2s are placed on opposite ends of the guitar at the sound hole so that they make a right angle with each other at the sound hole if you were to draw lines from them.

Then with mixing I bring the co2s at about 25% left and right (depending on how wide the image needs to be) and leave the luna alone.

Beautiful.

I realize you only have one mic, but the fact that the setup mentioned can be had for under $350 USD, not bad at all.

[Warhead]

Ribbon ribbon ribbon ribbon.



Did I mention, try a ribbon?

War

[Monkey Allen]

So...you reckon ribbon? Ok, I'll look into it!

[Kevin Deschwazi]

Some great info in this thread.

I think once you've done what you can with your recording space and you have a mic/s suitable for the application you just have to spend a while playing around with mic position. If you have a stereo pair to play around with this can take quite a long time trying the different configurations but when you find the 'sweet spot' it's well worth it.

I guess the more experienced guys will be able to throw a mic or a pair of mics up and get in the ballpark fairly intuitively, only needing a bit of tweaking to find the right position. Being fairly wet behind the ears I can be playing around with mic position for a long time before I get it right but there're some great looking starting positions in this thread.

This is my favourite bit of the recording process.

[Monkey Allen]

Yeah, some good info, very helpful. I am going to try the MXL 603 I think. I am wondering if it will produce much of a difference than the CAD m177 that I have now.

[bigtoe]

'I am going to try the MXL 603 I think.'

pretty wide patterned mic for the room situation yer in...but a cool mic.

a few suggestions:

1) get a rug/carpet/ quilt/ blanket/ whatever and set up the performance on it.

2) try micing the body for less edge.

3) you can get good results with what you have - but the re20/pl20 has been really nifty for acoustic instruments that just aren't working with the usual suspects - as has the ev 635a...who knew?

later-
Mike

[Monkey Allen]

I actually did a little recording tonight, just 35 seconds of 6 or 7 acoustic tracks. The sounds blended well together, and I didn't even worry about treating the room. Was pretty good signs really. I'll get serious soon. I'm on holidays in 2 weeks.

[Walter Tore]

I used my RODE NT-1A on a 1938 kalamazoo guitar. My mic placement was not very conventional(at least from little I know). I had it at about sound hole level, and about 4" below the bridge, and about 18" from the guitar. The vocal and harp went through a AKG C414 B TLII. It picked up a bit of the guitar and the rode picked up a bit of the harp and vocal. It was the first time I tried this mic on an acoustic guitar. What do you all think? Walter

My Love is over

If women were like guitars

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/7/wa...spontobeat.htm

[KJ09]

Put some carpet down on those concrete floors, place the Condenser Mic either closer to
your Acoustic guitar while turning the volume of the Mic down some, or put the Mic back
another foot from the Guitar and keep the Meter at 100%. You might also start recording
in a corner of the room that has either blankets/padding/egg shell cartons on the walls and
if your Condenser mic has switches on it -- use a -10db cut switch if your Acoustic guitar is
too clear. You can also roll off some of the treble in the Mix if you are using a Mixer. If you
are still not happy with the Acoustic sound, try using an SM-57 up close and set your Meter
(VU or LED) at 100%. You can also try some of the Omni-directional mics on your Acoustic such
as the AKG D-160 which is excellent on guitar but this Mic is not made any longer. Try adjusting
the room acoustics and try using your large Condenser again. That should work fine.

[pohaku]

Um, like with all your other posts here, have you even looked at the dates of these threads?

[XLR]

Hate to also bump and old thread but...

Originally Posted by KJ09

...keep the Meter at 100%. .

I wouldn't do that.

egg shell cartons on the walls

Nope.

use a -10db cut switch if your Acoustic guitar is
too clear.

Nope.

Try adjusting the room acoustics

Yep.